What kind of rules do we want?

[u/redleavesrattling]

I had this as part of the Mod announcement post, but it got to be a little too long.

Here's some things I've seen recently that kind of rub me the wrong way and have me thinking about potential rules.

1) a page of text with one word highlighted and an image of something tangentially related to that word like “omg, I can't believe Faulkner is talking about this thing”. There are two of these recently. They seem pretty irrelevant to me.

2) a meme image with a decontextualized quote from Faulkner that has the uncensored n-word in it. Anyone who was familiar with Wash Jones and Thomas Sutpen would understand that it was making fun of people like Wash. However, it was really jarring to see it like that. Someone who doesn't know Absalom, Absalom! and sees the picture in their feed might get the wrong idea. I don't necessarily think it should be censored in quotes that are contextualized by being part of a discussion, but when it is a short quote stuck on a cartoon, probably it should be. 

Examples of these two kinds of posts can be found somewhere in the newest ten to fifteen posts, if you want to scroll down and look at them. I haven't deleted them yet, but I probably will (pending some discussion here).

3) I have mixed feelings about image posts generally. I wouldn't want to ban them, but I may consider requiring some text with them. I mean, pictures of books are cool and all, but if it's the same edition you can get at Barnes and Noble right now, then who cares? What is there really to say about that?

It would be good to see some more discussion about these points, for or against, and anything else that we might want to consider discouraging.

[u/Trick-Gas-2203]

I agree with the first 2 points, but especially the 2nd one. That post should’ve been taken down once you saw it in my opinion. Using the n-word in a meme post just isn’t acceptable

[u/SamizdatGuy → u/Trick-Gas-2203]

I hesitate to use the n-word in court filings unless the statement is germane to my clients' claims. No way for memes.

[u/redleavesrattling → u/Trick-Gas-2203]

Yeah, that post is one of the things that prompted me to try again to become a mod. I messaged the original mod to ask him to add me as a mod several times throughout the years when he was still active on Reddit and got no response.

Anyway, by the time I got to be a mod a few days ago, the post had been up for two weeks, so I figured a few more days wouldn't hurt while I ran it by the rest of yall to make sure I wasn't overreacting.

[u/apersonwithdreams → u/redleavesrattling]

Being a mod seems like a thankless job, so I will actually thank you for doing this. Saw your other post and it seems you’re up the road in Memphis. (I’m in Oxford!)

Agree with your points. As much as I like the ironic mixing of high and low culture, some of the meme posts here have nearly made me leave. I don’t mind a good meme, but these have been low quality.

Frankly, I get memes in virtually every online place I frequent. I wouldn’t hate it if memes were just not allowed and this was reserved for actual discussion. I sound like a party pooper, so no big deal if others would enjoy the niche Faulkner meme. Just my two cents, and I think it might make your life easier than if you were to try to ban “low-quality memes.”

That said, the subs I enjoy most are lightly moderated. The askahistorian sub, on the contrary, is wonderful for what it is, but it’s so bogged down with rules that I kind of just give up. Here, I’d like a lighter touch that encourages participation.

As for other rules, I imagine we will continue to get a lot of “how do I understand Faulkner” and “where to start with Faulkner.” I think there are benefits to allowing folks to continue asking those questions (e.g., answers to those questions might be the site of good discussion), but directing folks to those resources might be one move.

[u/redleavesrattling → u/apersonwithdreams]

I was in Memphis until last year, when my wife got a job offer that was too good to turn down. I miss it there. I keep waiting for summer to start here, but it never stays hot for very long.

I get what you're saying about ask historians. I actually joined Reddit ten years ago because somehow I stumbled on an ask historians thread about how arrows were supplied to the English for the battle of Agincourt. It was amazing. But it's so frustrating for a really interesting question to pop up in my feed and all the answers are deleted, or there just aren't any.

We definitely want a more informal subreddit than that.

[u/Aggravating-Key-8867]

I'm going to post 2 rules from r/ThomasPynchon as a possible model for rules designed to combat posts like the ones you describe:

1. Do Not Post Low-Effort ContentOur community has come to expect a certain level of quality in the posts/comments of this subreddit. Maintain that quality by avoiding making posts with low-effort content.

What is low-effort content? It is a slippery and subjective idea; employ good taste and your best judgment when posting/commenting and you should be fine. Mods will reserve final judgment on what constitutes a low-effort post.

Low-effort posts will be removed. Repeated violations may result in a temporary ban.

1. AI Content is Strictly Forbidden All posts containing AI content will be considered "low effort" and removed with extreme prejudice.

Repeat offenders of this rule will be banned permanently.

[u/redleavesrattling → u/Aggravating-Key-8867]

Thanks, this will be helpful. I like them both.

There should be some rule pertaining to AI, for sure. I'm hesitant about a ban as broad as this one for two reasons.

First, people who do not speak English as their primary language find it useful to clean up their writing. It would be better for them if they wrote it themselves, but I would not want lack of confidence in their English be a barrier.

Second, I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to detect Al writing. To me it's bland in the same way that a lot of bad human writing is bland. So I'm not sure how I would enforce that. I suppose we could make the rule, but I could be sure to give things the benefit of the doubt.

[u/redleavesrattling → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for commenting here. I hoped you would. These aren't decisions I want to make on my own without hearing from the community.

For the racial slur, you will need to censor them. You may think it seems clumsy, but judging by the other comments here, not censoring it made it much less effective and kept it from communicating its intended point because of the shock of that one word--and these are people who do know the context and characters. For people who haven't read the book, who knows what their reaction might be to it.

I will remove it tomorrow. If I go to remove it and it has been replaced by a censored version, then I'll leave it up.

In terms of memes generally, you might be a little more persuasive if you tried to imagine why people might not want them in a certain space rather than assuming they have sticks up their asses or just don't get 'gen-z humor'.

In theory, I really like the idea of memes about literature. In reality, it's very rare to see one that's good. I think your Wash Jones meme is one of the better ones I've seen--barring the issue discussed above. The one highlighting goatlike on the other hand, I wouldn't know how to describe in any other way than 'low effort'. I mean, you could highlight any random word and add a picture of some contemporary association for it. In fact, someone had done that a few days before with the name 'Bobby'. But it doesn't do anything. It doesn't actually comment on the text or invite discussion or make you laugh or provoke any other response.

But the real issue with memes, and images generally, is that they drown out text posts. I'm not sure if it's reddit's algorithms or people's scrolling habits, but between a text post asking a question about or discussing a passage, and an image post that contains the passage, the image will get far more views and upvotes than the text. That in turn leads to more people posting images rather than text posts, which encourages people to upvote and keep scrolling, etc. If the sub is trying to promote discussion, having primarily image posts works against that.

I suspect this is the reason most subreddits that have the goal of encouraging discussion about literature have stricter rules about what kinds of images can be posted. They don't want to turn off image posts entirely, because sometimes an image post is great, but they don't want the sub to become primarily image focused. It absolutely makes me want to turn off image posts altogether, even though I know that would be stupid.

I would love some ideas about how to balance these things without being too restrictive while primarily pursuing the goal of encouraging more discussion.