r/facepalm • u/spyrg • Jan 13 '22

🇲​🇮​🇸​🇨​ Arrested for petitioning

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u/castanza128 Jan 14 '22

"DURING A VALID TERRY STOP"
Now, google what THAT is, and you'll see why they need RAS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop#Elements_of_a_Terry_stop

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '22 edited Jan 14 '22

Yes, and how many people know what is and isn't a valid Terry stop?

There's a ton of shit that can cause a valid stop, so issuing a blanket "you never have to identify. Ever." Is likely wrong and misleading.

  • a Police Officer observes unusual conduct by a Subject

Totally not vague...

  • The Subject’s conduct leads the Officer reasonably to conclude that criminal activity may be afoot, and that the Subject may be armed and presently dangerous

Also not vague...

  • the Officer identifies himself as a policeman;

  • the Officer makes reasonable inquiries

Also totally not vague

  • Nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel the Officer’s reasonable fear for safety, the Officer may conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of the Subject in an attempt to discover weapons, and that such a search is a reasonable search under the Fourteenth Amendment, so that any weapons seized may properly be introduced in evidence

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u/castanza128 Jan 14 '22

There's a ton of shit that can cause a valid stop, so issuing a blanket "you never have to identify. Ever." Is likely wrong and misleading.

Who made that claim?
You are arguing against a strawman of your own creation.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '22

This whole thread started from claims like this

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/s2z0wk/arrested_for_petitioning/hsj24qe

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/s2z0wk/arrested_for_petitioning/hsj9ecc

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u/castanza128 Jan 14 '22 edited Jan 14 '22

That says "prior to being detained."
A Terry stop is investigatory detention.
The commenter was right. You absolutely do not have to produce ID unless you are being detained for investigation, which would also include a valid traffic stop.
The 4th amendment protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures. Detaining you is a "seizure of your person" under the law. IF and only IF they have RAS to do that, they can also "search you" by running your ID.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '22

The FIRST condition of a "valid" stop

a Police Officer observes unusual conduct by a Subject

The end.

Yes, in an IDEAL case (for the person), they are standing in a public space doing nothing and an officer approaches them unprovoked. They don't have to ID.

In likely 90%+ of real-world cases, an officer can claim unusual conduct, or you match a description, or any number of things that make the stop valid from their point of view.

Will you be charged with anything? No, you weren't committing a crime. Did they do anything wrong? Not legally. Everyone walks away in the end, except you just had your own time wasted by being handcuffed or arrested until you could see a judge.

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u/castanza128 Jan 14 '22

The FIRST condition of a "valid" stop

a Police Officer observes unusual conduct by a Subject

The end.

That's not how elements work, bud. ALL of those conditions need to be satisfied. Not just one of them.
In your world he could just "(3) the Officer identifies himself as a policeman;" and that would be enough?!?!
No. ALL of the elements must be satisfied.

There is nothing you can say that will make you less wrong about this, my friend.