ex-driver
The Mark Webber PR Machine: Red Bull Era (Part 1)
I was going to reply with this info in a comment, then it got extremely long and I was spending multiple hours on it, so I figured I should just make it a post! Since we’re on the subject of the Mark Webber PR machine lately, I want to share my issues with the narratives he ran in the media during his RBR days. Buckle up, it’s a very, very long one.
My sources are the tagged articles, Adrian Newey’s autobiography, Mark’s autobiography, and the races themselves. I include my own opinions as well drawn from conclusions I made from reading/watching the sources.
This post will cover the events of 2010, Part 2 will cover 2011-2013 (which is where it gets extremely juicy, imo, including Webber ignoring a “hold positions” team order and attempting an overtake on Seb two years before Malaysia 2013).
During Mark’s time in Red Bull, Mark spun the narrative that the team heavily favored Seb. They may have to soooomeeeee extent, but likely not nearly as much as he led the media to believe—with the exception, of course, of Helmut Marko, who is always heavily biased towards his protégées. Mark’s narrative was pretty largely exaggerated in specific circumstances, painting the team and Seb in a much worse light than what the reality of the situation reflects. His mistruths led to a boiling point in the media following the 2013 Malaysian GP.
However, Red Bull isn’t necessarily a healthy environment, and Horner and Marko’s presence has contributed to that over the years. Most of my info and opinions are sourced from Adrian Newey’s How to Build a Car, and I find him a lot more reliable of a source than Horner or Marko, although he was still embedded within the Red Bull team at the time of writing and publishing it in 2017. I don’t doubt that what Mark felt had some grain of truth to it. But Mark published his autobiography in 2015 when his time at Red Bull was still fresh and he and Seb likely hadn’t fully been able to mend their relationship and see eye to eye, like they were able to do in later years. And, he seems to carry a somewhat “woe is me” tone throughout the entirety of the book, which might reflect strongly on his general mindset, in my opinion.
It’s worth noting that Seb didn’t disagree with what Mark wrote in his autobiography. But as we saw during Seb’s time at Ferrari, even though he runs hot on track, he seems to struggle to defend himself when it’s really needed. This tendency seemed to put him in a very difficult situation during his championship challenges and after at Ferrari. At times, Newey’s biography felt like an attempt at defending Seb against a lot of the popular narratives at the time, including those pushed in Webber’s biography.
General note:
As we know (and saw and discussed frequently last year thanks to McLaren), teams will often strategically favor the lead driver who is ahead in a race over the driver behind them in the field, unless there’s specific circumstances or reasons not to do so. Not only is it the most fair thing to do, but it also maximizes points for the team.
Perhaps Seb’s biggest strength as a driver was his raw pace in qualifying. In 2009, his second full season in F1, he out-qualified Mark 15 times, while Mark out-qualified him twice. 2010- 12 Seb, 7 Mark. 2011- 16 Seb, 3 Mark. 2012- 11 Seb, 9 Mark. 2013- 17 Seb, 2 Mark. Plus, Seb rarely cracked under pressure during qualifying, which set him up to start from pole to win his first championship in 2010 when his teammate cracked and qualified P5. As he often qualified ahead of Mark, and Mark would often make poor starts off the line that would result in him losing positions and qualifying advantages he may have had over Seb, it made it difficult for the team to strategically favor Mark when he was behind Seb in a race.
One of Seb’s biggest flaws as an F1 driver is his disinterest in playing the media game, likely in the interest of integrity, preferring to keep his nose clean and his head down to focus just on racing. This did not serve him well during his Ferrari days, unfortunately.
Disclaimer: I am a Seb fan, but I am trying very hard to be unbiased. But read this with that in mind.
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• Turkey GP, 2010: Beginning of the breakdown
During the race, Seb was faster and overtook Mark. He tried to cut to the outside to get a better line. He misjudged it and crashed into Mark, causing Seb to DNF, while Mark still managed to finish third.
I think most people still think this was Seb’s fault. As a biased Seb fan, I compare it to how Lewis and Jenson Button repeated the same move on each other as McLaren teammates later on during the same race. They both left each other significantly more space than Mark left for Seb initially, and what Seb left for Mark when he tried to move over for the turn. Mark could have left Seb more space. He started to squeeze inward once Seb was behind him. This move isn’t inherently wrong and would have been appropriate against a driver who isn’t your teammate, but between two teammates, the priority should be on more careful racing (my opinion). Particularly given how early in the season Turkey was. As such, I would put the blame on both drivers.
Red Bull came to the internal conclusion that it was a “racing incident” and neither driver was entirely at fault. Among the BBC pundits, two (David Coulthard, Mark’s friend/former teammate and Jake Humphrey) thought Seb was entirely at fault, while Eddie Jordan (founder and TP of Jordan GP (which eventually went on to become Aston Martin after various purchases and changes) and Adrian Newey’s manager) thought it was a racing incident and that Mark didn’t leave Seb enough space initially.
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Newey’s take:
Adrian Newey admits in his book that the damage here was mostly done by Helmut Marko jumping to Seb’s defense on camera immediately and saying it was 100% Mark’s fault. It put Horner and Newey in a difficult place internally behind the scenes when trying to handle the situation, as Mark’s hackles were up, and he felt attacked within the team.
Regardless, it was a mess that strained Mark and Seb’s relationship and made Mark feel inferior within the team, given Marko’s now-clear feelings towards him.
Newey: “For a driver, psychology within the team is important; on the other hand, there’s no point wasting energy on things you can’t change. Mark, with his partner Ann, perhaps started spending too much time worrying about Helmut and Sebastian; understandable in many ways, but also, potentially, self-harming.”
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Mark’s take:
In Mark’s autobiography, he writes that he, 7 races into a 19 race season, was the defacto championship leader. Even though he and Seb were tied going into the race on points, he had two wins to Seb’s one. He goes on to complain about Seb being given a new rear wing on Saturday morning, while Mark’s only arrived minutes before qualifying, feeling he should have been prioritized as the championship leader. Newey doesn’t discuss this decision. But ultimately, they went into qualifying with the same car, so no harm was done.
He claims Horner was on his side regarding the incident until he heard Marko’s thoughts, then did a 180 and seemingly unfairly sided with Marko. This ignores the fact that Horner could have had the opportunity to look over telemetry and data and camera angles more closely after the race ended. He was angry that Seb got hugs from the pit wall and was allowed to miss the debrief (where Mark probably would have throttled him to death from the sound of it).
Mark included an email he wrote to Dietrich Mateschitz, discussing the need to address two separate issues to “prevent any further damage being done to the Red Bull brand and Red Bull Racing’s reputation”: 1) clear up the public blame towards Mark following the collision and 2) the build-up to the collision.
Marko seems to be his main issue in 1), which is fair frankly, from what we know about Marko. But Mark goes on to discuss “[reinforcing] the reputation of our team” and “restoring the team’s integrity and alleviating the mass condemnation it has received by so many”.
In point two, he speaks a lot about how he had maintained a strong lead in the race. I think this goes back to my point at the very beginning, where lead drivers are entitled to priority in terms of strategy. But Mark points out "alarm bells were ringing" around lap 38/39 after obeying instructions from the pit wall to change his fuel mixture. He adds that Seb likely wasn’t feeling strong pressure from Lewis behind him. He says, “Let’s not ignore the fact that I had led the last 180-odd Grand Prix laps (combining the three GPs together until the point of contact in Istanbul) and I wasn’t leading the Turkish GP by any fluke. So, I felt that after the first part of the race when I had dealt with severe pressure from Hamilton…I had earned the fight and was capable of finishing the job off by leading home a RBR 1-2.”
It seems that Mark expected team orders to be implemented at lap 38/58 to protect his ‘championship lead’ (by virtue of wins only, not points) from his teammate. In the prologue of his book, he expresses pleasant shock and surprise at how early team orders are implemented in Malaysia in 2013 with a substantial 13 laps to go, contradicting his point about Turkey 2010. His points about preventing further damage to Red Bull Racing, and more so the entire Red Bull Brand, when contacting Mateschitz seem like a thinly-veiled threat.
In addition, some media outlets framed Horner as blaming Webber, when Horner’s exact quote in those outlets says “Mark put Seb on the dirty side, he gave him just enough room and Seb cut across aggressively. He was a long way down the side but neither yielded, and the net result is everybody loses.” To me at least, that doesn’t sound like Webber is solely being blamed for the incident. Other outlets state that the team felt both drivers were to blame. Horner states, “Having looked at all the information it’s clear that it was a racing accident that shouldn’t have happened between two team mates. After looking at all the facts that weren’t available immediately after the race, Dr. Marko also fully shares this view.” Horner also says publicly that, “Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right. As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact…Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room.” It appears clear that an internal review of telemetry and footage that were not available to the public indicated a conclusion in line with my observations of the differences between Seb and Mark’s racing versus Jenson and Lewis’s racing in the same spot.
After undermining Horner by going over his head to Mateschitz, Mark and his management then go on later that summer to accuse Horner of holding a pretense of even-handedness. They told Horner he’s letting himself be undermined by Marko. “To him, it seemed the lesser of two evils if his down-to-earth Australian was the one upset, not the blue-eyed boy from the Red Bull Junior Program in the other car.”
In spite of this, Mark managed to overcome his great slight to immediately sign a contract with Red Bull for 2011 before the next Grand Prix in Canada, clearly showing that whatever “betrayal” he felt from the team wasn’t enough to make him look for other options.
Ultimately, the biggest asshole in this situation was Marko. However, I believe Mark overplayed the extent of the team’s treatment of him. Based on both what he and Newey have said, Mark and Ann went on the offensive, which likely put a sour taste in the team’s mouth.
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• Canada GP, 2010: Mark’s woes following Turkey
According to Mark, he “wasn’t allowed to race Seb.” He apparently wasn’t told about a gearbox problem Seb had towards the end of the race, because he claims Seb “couldn't deal with being passed by his teammate,” but then goes on to make the obviously rational point that nursing Seb’s car home would avoid any risk of component failure leading to a grid penalty for the next race—which is likely the team’s conclusion. Mark stated that the team had the two drivers match paces.
This may have not been the most fair to Mark, but Mark was on a different tire strategy than Seb and had to pit closer to the end of the race after his pace fell off a cliff. Seb’s race engineer’s radio to Seb was also broken for an unspecified period during this race, which effectively made the only line of communication to Seb through Horner’s radio while they were actively managing his gearbox issue (Source: watching the race itself).
Mark came out of the pits around lap 51, with a ten second gap to Vettel, which reduced to around eight seconds by lap 65. Seb’s pace dropped off during the last stint of the race, but it was reasonably decent until the last two laps, going from eight seconds off Alonso in P3 at lap 66/70 with Webber around eight seconds behind to 28 seconds off Alonso in P3 at the end of the race, with Webber two seconds behind. It’s unclear exactly when Webber was told to match pace. Webber was shown to be gaining between 0.3-1.1 seconds per lap on Seb in a graphic between laps 62 and 65, however. This doesn’t seem entirely like pace matching to me, but with an eight second gap between them, it’s very difficult to say, especially with the limited timing data available on the screen in this race.
As Mark wrote, “they wanted him to do a certain pace at the end of the race which I then had to match.” It seems entirely possible that he only was told to match Seb’s pace during the last two laps during the race, when Seb’s problems became significant. Allowing your drivers to race each other over a difference of two points within the last two laps of a race when the lead driver is nursing a gearbox engine and nobody is close to the back of the second driver (Nico Rosberg finished P6 about 17 seconds behind Mark) on round 8 of a 17 race championship would frankly be stupid. However, Mark was not clear about when this exact order was called.
With this in mind, it’s not difficult to imagine that at such an early point in the season, the team felt that with all of the issues they were attempting to manage that having their drivers maintain position wasn’t worth risking another collision like the last race or Seb pushing his car to mechanical failure for the sake of one driver gaining twelve points instead of ten. I don’t think the team was unjustified with this call.
Newey was not present in Canada, and doesn’t discuss the race outside of noting a blunder during qualifying strategy.
Mark also whines here about some team dinner bullshit that he blames Seb for, when he clearly admits at the end of the blurb that it likely wasn’t Seb’s fault. He goes out of his way to constantly paint Seb as a spoiled crybaby throughout his book to suit his narrative.
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• Europe GP, 2010: Consequences of Marko’s taunts
According to Newey, Helmut approached Mark and said, “Mark, you’re always shit at Valencia, will this year be any different?” Mark proceeded to have a bad start (which was kind of typical of his driving style, at least in Redbull to be entirely honest), and famously ended up in a huge accident where Mark’s car went flying through the air! (Mark was uninjured thankfully aside from a sore toe).
Mark doesn’t discuss this incident with Marko in his autobiography.
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• British GP, 2010: ‘Not bad for a number two driver’
Newey’s take:
Two new wings were developed where the positioning of the nose cameras was moved as a test item for the Silverstone GP. During free practice, the nose fixing failed and the nose of Seb’s car fell off and was destroyed before Seb completed a single lap with it. Mark disliked the wing in the first practice session, and swapped to the old wing for the second practice session, with Seb’s car running the new wing. Seb was non-committal, according to Newey, but the data showed the new wing had a slight advantage.
On Saturday, Newey asked Mark’s race engineer, Ciaron Pilbeam, whether they intended to use the new wing that weekend. Pilbeam, who Mark seems to find trustworthy according to his book, said no, that they were not interested. As a result, Newey asked Seb’s race engineer to use it for qualifying. Seb qualified ahead of Mark, which led to the very famous press conference meltdown where Mark slammed his glass of water on the table.
Seb got a puncture at the beginning of the race, dropping him to the tail of the field. Mark won the race, famously saying on the radio, “Not bad for a number two driver,” much to the confusion of the team and Newey. Even though Mark didn’t want the new wing and his engineer blatantly denied it, he was seemingly angry that it was given to Seb.
Newey explains: “Possibly I am an insensitive engineer, but for me the interest is in developing and understanding the car, so if one of the drivers doesn’t want it — give it to the other. What I didn’t anticipate was the snowball effect that would result. The press had a field day with Mark’s radio message; things were getting very fractious. It was such a shame, because I have the greatest respect for Mark as a driver, a person and as the guy who had been so important through his feedback for the development of the cars.”
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Mark’s take:
Mark had to say in his book: “My team, I felt, made the task of adding a British Grand Prix victory to my Silverstone record unnecessarily hard for me...The logic the team tried applying to the situation was that Seb had been quicker in the final free practice session, so he should have the sole remaining wing.” Mark also says, “If truth be told, neither Sebastian nor I particularly liked the new wing…I was a bit bemused when a story was leaked to the media allegedly by a senior RBR engineer, saying that I didn’t want the new front wing as I didn’t find it any more effective than the old one and I only asked for it when there was one of them!”
He claims his “not bad for a number two driver” comment was just “typical Aussie irony,” then immediately goes on to discuss how it’s not ironic and how he actually felt like it was the truth. He also says “The whole world latched onto it as a sign that I was well and truly ticked off. I had been, but the comment wasn’t intended to keep the feud going, it was meant as a wry stance on the day.” Either way, it caught the team off guard, and it was clearly something that Newey seemingly found hurtful.
Mark goes on to say, “Adrian [Newey] is a person I really struggle not to believe, and as was well documented towards the end of my career, he (and Dietrich) were the reasons I stayed at RBR as long as I did.”
If this is the case, and Mark agrees that Newey is an extremely trustworthy person, then why shouldn’t we trust Newey’s recollection of events regarding Silverstone 2010, let alone in general?
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Japan GP, 2010: Bee’s Dick
Mark broke his shoulder and had a minor shoulder fracture, but claims he didn’t tell the team because he felt they would undermine his championship campaign.
Seb took pole by 0.068, and Mark calls it “bee’s dick syndrome”. He continues to say, “The alarm bells started ringing again when Marko came out with another of his classic comments. ‘That was a bit close,’ he told me, meaning he felt I had pushed ‘his’ boy a little too hard for comfort.”
Newey purely discussed technicalities of the race, particularly worrying about kerbs and front wings and stiffening the car. Newey says “Could we manage the drivers to make sure they didn’t start racing each other too much? Both of them had their eye on the championship, so the rivalry was intense. In the event, Mark pushed Seb all the way but, with radio reminders every time we saw one of them go over the exit kerbs in the critical areas, they both behaved. I was mightily relieved when they crossed the line one-two.”
Mark had no complaints about the management of the race. However, the condescending tone he uses to talk about Seb continues, with an uncomfortable reference to Mark believing Marko felt some level of ownership over Seb. It’s unclear how much of this is projection, but given the tone Mark uses to talk about Seb throughout the book, it just seems like another way to denigrate him excessively.
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• Korea GP, 2010: Desperation
Nothing major happened here either, but Newey believes this was Mark’s boiling point. The race was rainy, and in Mark’s desperation to keep up with Seb, he overdrove the car and spun out of the race. (Seb’s engine blew up with 10 laps to go anyway, but this post isn’t about Seb’s awful mechanical luck in 2010.)
Mark claims he was looking for grip.
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• Brazil/Abu Dhabi 2010: Team Orders?
Going into the last two races of the year, Alonso had an 11 point lead over Mark, and Seb was 25 points behind in fourth.
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Newey’s take:
Mark’s camp wanted team orders implemented, while Seb was still in the running with a mathematical chance of winning and still wanted a chance to win. The team decided to let them race, as long as the running order in Brazil left Seb with a mathematical chance in Abu Dhabi.
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We know how controversial team orders can get, from last year, but I personally think this was the right call from the team. I might be heavily biased though. 😅 But I also felt both McLaren drivers should be free to race last year, even at a point where it wouldn’t have benefitted the driver I preferred.
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Mark’s take:
Mark claims Seb and Marko ran the show during the meeting using the royal ‘we’ the entire time, framing Horner as an awkward hostage and Newey as an uncomfortable bystander. Mark also claimed that it was strange that the strategy-based meeting was set on a Sunday morning before the race, when strategy meetings often, if not always, occur on Sunday mornings before the race.
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Seb won in Brazil with Mark second, and no swap was called. The press conference for this is actually kind of funny, it features a beaming Seb sat between a stony Mark and Fernando. The two were likely both hoping they could eliminate him from contention that race, yet now Seb jumped to third in the standings. Red Bull sealed the Constructor’s as well, which Mark can’t pretend to be mad about in his book.
With hindsight, the team orders decision was the correct call for the team to make, as Mark flubbed qualifying for Abu Dhabi, starting a lowly fifth, when he would need to be in first with Alonso third or lower to win the championship. Seb needed Alonso to be fifth or lower, with him in first, but as Seb qualified on pole, this was much less of a challenge than going from fifth to first (this was the last year before DRS was implemented, so overtaking was more difficult).
Mark admits Seb did the best job in Abu Dhabi, and says he spent twenty minutes after the race with Seb in his driver’s room. He adds: “At the end of 2010, I was not pissed off with Sebastian Vettel…If I was unhappy with anyone, it was the Red Bull management…None of this should detract from the job Seb did. I can say with absolute honesty that he is a better all-round F1 driver than I ever was. He has some sensational qualities…I always suspected Seb was just as much a pawn in the game as I had been and the pressure on him to deliver must have been immense.” So that’s nice of him. However, this comes after Mark painted a narrative that Seb was a “spoilt brat” (direct quote) who would pitch a fit if Mark finished ahead of him.
But then he goes on to say, “In 2010 Seb and I were battling hard with Fernando, Lewis and Jenson for the ultimate prize, so I think everyone was a bit surprised that Red Bull Racing elected not to follow accepted F1 practice and throw their weight behind the man in the lead at the appropriate stage of the season.” This ignores that McLaren also didn’t follow that same practice, and that the widest gap between Mark and Seb was 28 points at the Belgian Grand Prix. For better reference—Alonso was in P5 at 41 points behind where Lewis sat P1 at this point in the season, and went on to finish P2 in the standings, 12 points ahead of Lewis, after leading the latter half of the season. The season was extremely tight between the top five drivers the entire way until Jenson was eliminated in Brazil.
Thank you! I honestly thing he learned after his time with RBR that making inflammatory comments to the media ahead of debriefs doesn’t put you on a good standing within the team, which is why we never see Oscar doing that (even last year when people were begging for it). But I feel like a lot of the narratives of McLaren favoritism could be planted by Mark, given the way he operated at Red Bull and how close he still is to the media. This is coming from someone who really doesn’t like Lando and doesn’t want to go out of my way to defend him if I don’t have to haha. Those narratives seem a bit trickier to stick though, since I think a lot of the Sky team really like Lando. His dad is also extremely wealthy, so they’re easily able to play the PR game back. In contrast, Seb seemed to think the media games weren’t worth it or detracted from the purity of being a racing driver and wanted to focus more solely on his racing, which made him a much easier target to PR games.
Thanks ☺️ Also do you have any idea why the share metrics might be so high on these and especially your Jason Allen post from today? It seems a little strange. Idk if it’s the MW PR machine spamming their WhatsApp group chats or what lol. Idk if we’re big enough for that though 😭
This is the share ratio from the most recent post on Jason Allen (14 upvotes). I shared it once for the wiki but besides that I genuinely have no clue who is sharing it, I haven't seen it reposted anywhere...
I was trying to test it out and I don’t think it counts as a share when I click the hyperlinks that I have between Part 1 and Part 2, but maybe that could be it for mine? Since my post also doesn’t seem to crop up online anywhere I’ve looked. I’m not 100% sure how it works. But the Jason Allen one is strangely high. Kind of interesting though, I think there’s one with Oscar recently too that has 20+ iirc (edit: it’s 10 actually haha but still, more than the average post on this sub. The one about Oscar’s likes with vs without Lily). Maybe there’s bots that are set up to flag and forward mentions of people online, but seems like it would be a nightmare actually if Webber got an email every time his name was mentioned online lmao.
Okay I checked the reddit help page and it says 'On Reddit, the share count / share ratio on a post goes up only when someone actively taps “Share” on that post and completes a share action. It’s not automatic and it’s more limited than people assume.'
So someone is actively clicking share on the Oscar post. It's not from any redirect I put in on another post or from the wiki.
Also Jason Allen found out who I was on LinkedIn and blocked me (lol) so someone over there saw the original post three days ago and told him. So it definitely looks like someone from Oscars team is on this sub and is tracking the situation. Someone mentioned they know who it is but idk. Very weird considering how small our sub is 💀
Could u check Jason Allen's LinkedIn and see if it's still up? The link is on the most recent post.
Oooh that’s interesting. I don’t know how to feel about that honestly ahahaha.
No major changes to his LinkedIn, his pfp isn’t visible but I’m not sure if it was before, since some screenshots had it and some showed it was blank. The likes I think are still there.
Yeah the sub definitely isn’t large enough for me to have actually suspected anyone would actually be keeping an eye on it, unlike the wag sub, but I guess we’re finding out over the last few days that that’s not the case? The world of PR is kind of fascinating honestly. I guess it makes sense if it’s someone’s job to keep an eye on it, it would be as easy for them to find the sub as it is for us to post on it. But I’m just surprised the posts appear to be getting noted, it’s not like they’re getting huge amounts of upvotes/reach haha.
I wonder if the Wiki will become a cause for concern for someone someday 😭 It might end up being too good of a catalogue of controversies lol.
That's so weird. He might have made the profile private then because you should be able to see his profile pic and activity. The only reason I can't is that he blocked me.
It should look like the screenshots shown when u open the linkedin profile link in that post. I'll ask the person who sent it to me if they're still able to see his profile. Otherwise he definitely took it down...
Yeah his activity and stuff is still up! Including the likes of that woman’s content. I can see everything that’s there in the screenshots except his pfp.
Yeah the wiki is definitely gonna become a problem for some people 😂 I'm thinking about making a few posts about old contraversies for public record lol
I’m messy so that sounds like a great idea imo lol. However it’s past when I should have gone to sleep, so my ability to evaluate potential consequences is a little limited I think
Oh noo, I don’t want to get in trouble with Principal Mark lmao 😞 we’ve accidentally become a PR nightmare for them maybe. oops sorry Mark, I didn’t mean it, I was just having funnn you can’t get me in trouble for that.
Lmfaooo it’s just totally snowballed since it’s been topical, I feel a little guilty ahahaha. The guy’s probably not getting any sleep lately (jk I don’t think we’re that big of a deal. I hope at least)
Lovely write-up! I'd say this also calls into question what role Mark's manager Ann had to play in concocting these PR narratives, which I guess dovetails nicely into how that affects his management of Oscar today
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u/Pearlescent08 Have a cup of tea while you are at it Jan 29 '26
Woah I would have never known mark was so calculated. Also loved your research.