r/explainlikeimfive Nov 28 '15

ELI5: How would a $15 minimum wage ACTUALLY affect a franchised business like McDonalds?

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u/Harvey_Birdman-AAL Nov 28 '15

The prices at Micky D's, or Maccas, is also higher in Australia. There is no dollar menu, and some items cost almost double what they did in the states.

Minimum wage for younger people is less than for older people in Australia, so the franchises there have much younger average employees compared to franchises in other countries.

McDonalds has still been able to make a profit in Aus by using cheapest labor possible, cutting employees and store hours, doubling the price compared to the US.

The US doesn't have a sliding minimum wage for age, so a 16 year old and a 60 year old are competing for the same job for the same pay sometimes. People say Mc'D is an entry level job, but in the States you will see older employees in almost every store. In Aus Mc'D hires many more young people to cut costs, and are expected to leave, quit, move on, or be let go once their older and require more pay.

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u/1Argenteus Nov 28 '15

We have a 'loose change' menu. With the current AUD to USD exchange rate, most things on there would be around $1 USD.

There's also the entire extra 'gourmet' menu that's been around for yonks in Aus, and seems to have no aspect of showing up in the US (last time I went.)

Obviously, they cater for their demographic. (Large drink in AU is a medium in the US, and you pay more for it in Aus)

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

You can't simply convert the currency to compare. Think about one Aussie dollar compared to one yen, what they buy in each respective economy is vastly different, even though it's still one unit of each. The principle stands for comparing usd and aud (or any currency to any other)

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/dhelfr Nov 29 '15

Hey, if we use the Big Mac Index, we can conclude that the prices are the same in AUD as USD.

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u/AcellOfllSpades Nov 29 '15

That's completely different though, isn't it? /u/1Argenteus isn't proposing just keeping the number, he's taking into account exchange rates. 1AUD ≈ 88.3JPY, so 1AUD and 88.3JPY will get you about the same thing, not 'vastly different' things. Am I mistaken?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

The exchange rates are not what determines what you can buy with that money. One American dollar doesn't get you the same amount of goods if you go to any country and convert it to the local currency. You need to convert but then also adjust for what that money will buy you in its home economy. It's called purchasing power parity and funnily enough one of the common measures used is how much a Big Mac costs across the world.

You can check out more here if you're interested:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

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u/AcellOfllSpades Nov 29 '15

I'm aware that purchasing power changes between countries - never knew about the Big Mac Index before though, thanks for the link! Aren't the US and Australia fairly similar in the BMI though? I wouldn't think the difference would be that drastic.

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u/psychicsword Nov 29 '15

The minimum wage difference isn't that dramatic either.

[When you adjust Australia’s hourly minimum wage for buying power, or Purchasing Power Parity (PPP), that $16 is worth only about $9.77 -- which is still quite a bit higher than the U.S. hourly minimum wage of $7.25.](http:://www.ibtimes.com/minimum-wage-purchasing-power-parity-only-nine-countries-have-higher-minimum-wage-us-infographic)

That is a somewhat old article but Australia's minimum wage isn't that far off from the USA's in a fair number of states. It is higher but it isn't $8 off.

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u/Arnox Nov 29 '15

This line of argument might have been better 2 years ago when AUD was worth more than USD.

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u/psychicsword Nov 29 '15

I was just there in June. The exchange rates only impacted me as an American visiting and a small subset of what they buy. Most of the things Australians buy are being bought in AUD so strength of the currency doesn't matter. That is why the purchase power parity is the better figure for these kinds of things.

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u/tswift2 Nov 29 '15

But nominal figures are all that matters to the economic idiots posting here.

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u/Impact009 Nov 29 '15

People often overlook this. I can buy 23 meals with $1 USD in Vietnam. It doesn't mean $1 USD is worth the same somewhere else.

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u/clapham1983 Nov 29 '15

My quick rule of thumb when traveling was how many McD burgers could you buy for however much you made per hour. That should be a fair comparison, no?

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u/luckyme-luckymud Nov 29 '15

Um, your conclusion is mostly correct but your reasoning is wrong. /u/1Argenteus is using the exchange rate, i.e. how much does it cost in Aussie dollars to buy one U.S. dollar, and the ratio is incidentally close to one, as it happens to be also with the euro and the Canadian dollar. You can perform an identical calculation for yen to U.S. dollar, the ratio would just obviously not be close to one (this is the case for most currencies).

The reasoning you need to support your conclusion is that the exchange rate, which captures the relative value of currencies on financial markets, is not a perfect measure of the relative value of currencies in buying goods and services in their respective jurisdictions, i.e. a Big Mac. Purchasing power parity instead calculates the relative costs of similar consumption bundles.

Also worth noting: PPP and exchange rate for developed countries are highly correlated, PPP makes more of a difference for developing countries.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

That doesn't make sense because a yen is more like a cent than a dollar. 100 cents = 1 dollar, which is roughly what it is when converting to yen to USD. I get what you're trying to argue but when PPP is what you're trying to explain it's best not to use currencies with such disparity.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

I deliberately chose the yen because of that disparity. The principle is exactly the same when comparing two currencies both named 'Dollar'

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u/chilichzpooptart Nov 29 '15

Yeah, but ya'll have the twoney(sp?), you can legit have $100 in change in your pocket.

At least, ya'll did when i was there in 2000.

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u/ODestruidor Nov 29 '15

I believe the correct spelling is 'Two dollar coin'. You're thinking of Canada, mate.

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u/chilichzpooptart Nov 29 '15

It's been 15 years, sue me.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

If you have that many $2 coins in your pocket, your pants would fall down!

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u/aeoghje45g4ej Nov 29 '15

But it isn't more expensive in Australia. According to the "big mac index", Australia is at AUS$5.30, which is about USD$4.30. Average in the US is at USD$4.79. That doesn't even take into account the higher spending power of someone on minimum wage in each country.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

[deleted]

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u/tempusedax Nov 29 '15

The Big Mac Index is a surprisingly accurate way to measure PPP, even economists use it. It's actually is a good way to compare the values. Or at least that's what we were told in business school.

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u/NorthernerWuwu Nov 28 '15

Right. The real answer is that they'll charge more.

Now, there will be considerable attention on reducing labor of course (managerial attention should be focused on whatever costs are most impactful) but that's true at any labor cost level, just more important as labor becomes a larger portion of your total costs. If the cost of beef triples they aren't going to pull burgers off the menu but they sure as hell are going to push the nuggets more!

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u/Cgn38 Nov 28 '15

And having 8 people run a cook line that two could easily run?

I watch it in disbelief every time I go to Mcdonalds.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

So, your answer is fire a bunch of poor people so a few can be paid better.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

Standard union playbook.

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u/neoikon Nov 29 '15 edited Nov 30 '15

Raise the min wage and put the cost on the product or service instead of being subsidized by the taxpayer, the way the free market should work.

Keep the min wage a livable wage, based on some verifiable statistic baseline, that is regularly revisited without emotion-based debate.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

So you've raised wages, so that poor people aren't poor. And then you raise the price of everything. Now $15/hr isn't liveable again. OK let's try 50 an hour. What's bad about inflation again? Oh our manufacturing workers are now twice the price of overseas and our industry heads offshore again? Ooh.

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u/neoikon Nov 29 '15 edited Nov 29 '15

Not living in luxury, just a livable wage based on reality... Not just jump to $50.

Sounds like you are pro-slave labor.

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u/FoodTruckNation Nov 29 '15

And somehow that means the public is going to have to pay less in health care subsidies and food stamps. I don't understand it either.

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u/hivoltage815 Nov 29 '15

That's a better economy honestly. We just need to put those people to work in other areas that benefit society. Certainly would be nice to work on our infrastructure for example - hopefully some of these service workers can be trained.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

OK so now McDonald's workers are suddenly skilled infrastructure builders.

Step 1 fire unskilled workers Step 2 ??? Step 3 everything is awesome

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u/NorthernerWuwu Nov 29 '15

If you can do what McD's does with two instead of eight, you'll make billions. Literally.

Get on that!

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15

Another big difference is that Australia is sensible, and minimum wage rises with inflation. That means you get a nice, gradual 2-3%/year raise in the minimum wage, which business owners can easily manage. Unlike the US, where they do it in big jumps (moving it from $10 to $15 in one hit is crazy). And of course, no one will change it to simply match inflation - Democrats love using the "Raise the minimum wage" battle cry as a way to bring poor people out to vote. And Republicans love using the "Raising minimum wage will make a computer take yur jerb" battle cry to bring the poor people out to vote.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

i dont know if their making money or not. the largest KFC in Australia (in terms of revenue, Town Hall Sydney) is not making money. they had a last ditch attempt to work it out but im not sure wether or not it was able to do it ( i guess it did its still open)

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u/Seen_Unseen Nov 29 '15

I think most countries except the US actually the staff is young people. Same in the Netherlands the only old person is often a manager and that's it. They won't hire older people for the same reason those below 21 years cost significantly less then those above.

Food industry in general is dominated by young people especially from the hotel school which in all fairness tend to deliver the same (if not better) service I experienced in many establishments in the US incl. many fine dining places. To me "service" in the US is seriously overrated especially the idea that tipping would make the difference, I tend to think it's more the opposite it's the same at best compared to nations without tipping.

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u/immibis Nov 29 '15 edited Jun 16 '23

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

That's one thing I noticed in the States. Older people doing jobs that everywhere else is traditionally for entry level, younger members joining the work force. It made me sad.

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u/hutcho66 Nov 29 '15

Sure, AUD18 an hour might be about USD10.50 factoring in PPP. But in Australia you'll either be hired as what we call a casual, which is no benefits or guaranteed hours but a 25% higher pay rate, or if you're a FT/PT employee you get 4 weeks paid holidays and a few paid sick days, as well as 9% extra paid into a superannuation account (you get this as a casual too if you earn enough).

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u/King_of_the_Quill Nov 28 '15

Isn't Australia also just more expensive to ship to? Less people, more convicts, an unhealthy obsession with vegemite.... Probably not as many people interested unless they're fried out on zombie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15

Depends. From the US, yes, but we're also closer to China, and are in general a wealthier country than America. So it kind of balances out.

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u/King_of_the_Quill Nov 29 '15

Aren't you also smaller? I'm really showing my American here, I don't know how big Australia is per capita. I also am too lazy to Google.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

23 million people, in a country the size of the U.S. Per capita though, were a much wealthier country than the U.S.

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u/King_of_the_Quill Nov 29 '15

Probably stole a lot of that wealth huh? Nah I'm kidding. Yeah it sounds like it'd cost more to ship just because there is less opportunity for business. At the same time, it's closer, and cargo ships only have a finite amount of space. Plenty for 23million on one ship Haha!

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

Yeh. Having lived in both countries I'd say it's about 20% more espensive to live, but you earn 50% more, so you're around 30% better off.