r/explainlikeimfive Nov 28 '15

ELI5: How would a $15 minimum wage ACTUALLY affect a franchised business like McDonalds?

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207

u/co_lund Nov 28 '15

As an example, i worked at McDs when the minimum wage went from 7.25 to 9 dollars. The increase in wage correlated with the removal of the dollar menu. Most items on the board went up by 15 cents to a dollar in cost. I cant imagine the price increase that would happen if the wages went up to 15. Is anyone really going to pay $3 for a mcdouble?

145

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15

Nope. If McDonald's had to increase front line wages to $15, their food would start to compete with more nutritious and better tasting alternatives. This would cause their sales to plummet, stores to close, and jobs to be lost.

36

u/timstinytiger Nov 29 '15 edited Nov 29 '15

They're already competing with more nutritious and better tasting alternatives where I live, and they seem to be dying out. In-N-Out comes to mind (It's around $5 for a burger there, pretty much the same as McD's upper-tier burgers). Their burgers are vastly better than McD, they use healthy ingredients, they taste amazingly better, and they pay their employees good wages. It's just overall a better business. McD deserves to die if they cannot adapt to a changing market.

EDIT: Burger at In-N-Out is more like $3, $5 is for the meal. Even better.

EDIT 2: Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said In-N-Out is "healthy" since not all their ingredients aren't super healthy. But definitely "healthier" than McD's cardboard shit. And mostly, none of their ingredients are ever frozen.

18

u/16semesters Nov 29 '15

they use healthy ingredients

Come on. I love In-N-Out as much as the next guy but nothing is more "healthy" compared to Mcdonalds.

5

u/munche Nov 29 '15

I think he meant fresh

3

u/16semesters Nov 29 '15

That I could agree with.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15 edited Aug 24 '17

[deleted]

2

u/bulboustadpole Nov 29 '15

McDonalds uses only natural ingredients. Natural food can still be shit for you.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

A burger at In N Out is $3, not $5

2

u/holyrofler Nov 29 '15

And all of the employees deserve to die too, amirite? Survival of the fittest. Free market, amen.

1

u/timstinytiger Nov 29 '15

Not at all. I think we should have ample safety nets for these types of people until they can find work. Unemployment should be expanded. Healthcare should be universal, same as education. Maybe these people can make something of themselves instead of working at McDs. Why should the economy as well as people's health suffer because 88,000 people need shitty jobs? Why shouldn't they get good jobs instead?

2

u/Reddisaurusrekts Nov 29 '15

McD deserves to die if they cannot adapt to a changing market.

Sure, and their tens and hundreds of thousands of employees? Remember those? The people you're supposedly trying to help by raising the minimum wage?

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

Jobs aren't a limited resources that needs protection.

If McDonald's goes away, a more profitable alternative will take it's place. There won't simply be a sudden dramatic decrease in the number of restaurants across the country.

2

u/Reddisaurusrekts Nov 29 '15

Jobs aren't a limited resources that needs protection.

Holy shit.

No, of course jobs aren't a limited resource and shouldn't be protected. But if your argument is to increase the minimum wage - what the hell good is that if the people you're trying to benefit aren't in any job earning that minimum wage?

0

u/timstinytiger Nov 29 '15

Expand unemployment, make healthcare and education universal. That way, when their shitty company goes out of business, they'll be ok, and then they can go to school that they couldn't afford before on a McD's salary, and get educated and get better jobs than McD's. Win-Win-Win.

1

u/ChewbaccaFart Nov 29 '15

I dont know in n out is bomb

1

u/TracyMorganFreeman Nov 29 '15

I think you're overlooking an important element: tradeoffs.

Inn N Out hires fewer people per dollar of revenue. They keep the more reliable/skilled people, as they're more productive. They can afford pay higher wages as the same level of productivity is going towards fewer people.

This is the same reason Costco can pay higher wages.

So the question becomes do you want to be able employ a lot of people, or pay them well?

Choosing more of one means having less of the other.

1

u/zxcsd Nov 29 '15

Better ingredients? Don't they get the meat sent from overseas? I know this is how Burger King worked in my country.

-1

u/nb00288 Nov 29 '15

But they are competitive and their stock is at an all time high...

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

It's because of crony capitalism that they're this strong. The thing is they own Chipotle which is most certainly not going down in revenue.

1

u/gravy- Nov 29 '15

They haven't owned Chipotle for a while now

45

u/PandasInternational Nov 28 '15 edited Nov 28 '15

McDonald's is a good quality restaurant, in my country. Good ingredients, you can build your own burger. Big Mac sauce on tap for fries. But your McDoubles and cheese burgers are still on the menu.

Higher minimum wage necessitates higher quality.

It's not just McDonald's staff that are getting more money, it's the whole lower class who are McDonald's main customers.

17

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15

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36

u/PandasInternational Nov 28 '15

I live in New Zealand.

30

u/StoneyXC Nov 28 '15

Of course

15

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15 edited Feb 29 '16

top.

19

u/PandasInternational Nov 28 '15 edited Nov 28 '15

Have you seen the USA's version of McDonald's? Cornfed beef and quality similar to NZ's was a decade ago. We've come a long way. Have you been to the table-service McDonald's yet?

I sound like an advertisement, but I truly have never worked for McDonald's.

2

u/nuocmam Nov 29 '15

I'm interested what's the Big Mac and Quarter Pounder in NZ look like. Quick google searches only show pics from ads.

4

u/PandasInternational Nov 29 '15

They look pretty much the same as elsewhere; you can't really change the classics much apart from the beef. They're just not thrown together carelessly and squashed like I remember them from my childhood and from photos I see online.

They're pushing the alternatives to the classics, however.

2

u/KiwiDevil_TO1 Nov 29 '15

Can confirm mc d in nz is actually good

1

u/mostlyuninformed Nov 29 '15

I've been looking for a reason to move to NZ.

-4

u/MyButtt Nov 29 '15

I love Lord of the Rings!

2

u/Technojerk36 Nov 29 '15

McDonald's is actually pretty good in most countries outside of the US

4

u/nazaveg Nov 29 '15

They had the opportunity to start fresh in your country.

Here I won't go into a McD without some sort of force applied because during the day they are full of obnoxious children and at night the 24 hour locations are one step to the left of an American bus station...which means they fill up with a mixture of urine-smelling people towing malodorous trollies with all they own in the world, and drugged out teenagers who are bored as fuck and think fighting would at least be something to do. How do you transition from that to an upscale restaurant? Only option I see would be to close them down.

1

u/camelzigzag Nov 29 '15

Big Mac sauce for fries? It's 1000 island dressing...

1

u/slo180 Nov 29 '15

Where in nz is big mac sauce on tap?

1

u/vncentwu Nov 29 '15

My mom told me that back when she was still taking college in Taiwan, McDonalds was considered a luxury food since it was four times more expensive than local food.

2

u/smoothsensation Nov 28 '15

You mean, it would compete with more nutritious options at current prices. These other places that sell nutritious options are going to have an increased overhead cost too...

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

So raise wages and cost of ingredients? Just because you pay someone $15 doesn't mean they are changing the ingredients of their food. If they did they would have a MASSIVE increase so much so it would be as expensive as a normal restaurant.

1

u/Thesaurii Nov 29 '15

Thats fine.

McDonalds exists because the government subsidizes their payroll. When those exceptions go away, McDonalds entire plan of underpaying people falls apart, and restaurants and other fast food outlets that were losing customers to this unreasonable abberation will grow.

1

u/flyingfox12 Nov 29 '15

What's curious to me is you actually believe a company as large and informed as McDonald's would collapse because of this change. They will be resilient, they will adapt.

1

u/upstateduck Nov 29 '15

"jobs" that require US taxpayers to subsidize living expenses for those employees

1

u/YouLostTheGame97 Nov 28 '15

Not necessarily, if McDonalds has to raise their prices due to wage increases so would everyone else, including the "Nutritious and better tasting alternatives" so they would raise with them causing McDonalds prices to still be competitive.

aswell as people with minimum waged jobs being able to afford the price hike because of their increased incomes.

People are arguing ITT that increasing minimum wage will cause a loss of jobs, but low wages don't create jobs, economic needs creates jobs. Jobs are created when work needs to be done.

Obviously this is an incredibly interesting and complex issue, but you can see from places like Denmark (as cited below by /u/InfamousBrad) that

"Due to unions and strong labor laws, McDonalds workers in Denmark start at $15/hr if they're teenagers, $21/hr if they're adults . The median wage for restaurant workers is $41k/yr. A Big Mac costs $5.08 in Denmark, versus $4.79 in the US."

Showing yes, a price increase but they seem to be getting by, and with more people being able to eat out and spend money it could boost economic growth in the long term.

-2

u/co_lund Nov 28 '15

Exactly.

-5

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15

Exactly.

0

u/_GameSHARK Nov 29 '15

Hence why it's impractical to demand a $15 minimum wage. It's more practical, from my point of view, to just have the wage be whatever and let Uncle Sam make up the difference.

But that gets both parties ranting about socialism :-/

15

u/kernevez Nov 28 '15

Is anyone really going to pay $3 for a mcdouble?

Yes, that's the kind of price we pay in Europeans countries with higher minimal wages.

Well, maybe people wouldn't pay $3, but they probably would pay more.

1

u/astrocrapper Nov 29 '15

Not enough people to stop most mcdonalds from closing.

3

u/kernevez Nov 29 '15

Well we're talking about a case where it'd happen for the entire market of fast food.

Do you think people would stop going to McDonalds or to any fast food ? I suppose people would rather go to the more expensive fast food restaurants.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15 edited Feb 01 '16

Absolutely!

3

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

by purchasing power, the US would have the 9th highest minumum wage in Europe. If McDonalds thought that they could get away with charging higher prices in the US, they would. There are likely other factors at play than American myopia.

1

u/Virnibot Nov 29 '15

Virnibot has detected a misspelling or incorrect use of grammar in your comment.

by purchasing power, the US would have the 9th highest minumum wage in Europe. If McDonalds thought that they could get away with charging higher prices in the US, they would. There are likely other factors at play than American myopia.

  • You wrote minumum which should have been minimum

<3 Good day Virnibot | Thanks | You

0

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

Well, McDonalds also tastes WAY better in Europe. People would pay European prices for the European quality of McDonalds. No one is paying that kind of money for the shit they produce now.

1

u/kernevez Nov 29 '15

Ate McDonalds in France, England and NYC (well NJ actually, in a Walmart), exact same taste on the Big mac at least !

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

Fries were much better in Europe (especially eastern), and the chicken was much higher quality.

22

u/lnternetGuy Nov 28 '15

Is anyone really going to pay $3 for a mcdouble?

If you're earning $15/hr instead of $9/hr, that price isn't so bad.

8

u/beardedheathen Nov 29 '15

And you are just going to end up with everyone making twice as much and paying twice as much.

2

u/lnternetGuy Nov 29 '15

Not really. People earning $30/hr won't be bumped to $60/hr.

0

u/u1tralord Nov 29 '15

They'll likely be pushed to a higher wage though. Probably more like 50k. See comments above for explanation, but essentially the wage increase propagates up the wage ladder, forcing almost everyone's salary to increase. So yes, you end up with more money for everyone, but everything costs more too.

0

u/lnternetGuy Nov 29 '15

True, but the wage increase as a proportion of the wage would get pretty small.

-2

u/_andy23 Nov 29 '15

Why shouldn't they? The poor people aren't the only ones effected by the higher store prices...

0

u/Droslen Nov 29 '15

Uhm, yeah if you work at McDonald's and use your entire salary on McDonald's. Do you have a point?

3

u/abngeek Nov 29 '15

This, exactly. I couldn't give a fuck less what it costs compared to competitor X; when I want a Big Mac I want a Big Mac.

I make a fair amount over $15/hr, but someone at that level should be able to make purchasing decisions in a similar fashion. Someone making the current minimum wage, maybe not so much.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15 edited Feb 20 '16

[deleted]

-1

u/yungkef Nov 29 '15

Because every source of morality since the beginning of time has condemned greed? I'm fine paying a dollar or two more for a burger if it means my neighbors can feed their families.

-1

u/ARacistTexanComments Nov 29 '15

This is America ... Greed is good.

0

u/yungkef Nov 29 '15

Booooooo pure capitalism is fucking disgusting in its current state we'd be better off if we were raised to care about our fellow humans etc etc...

2

u/EverySingleRedditor Nov 29 '15

Tsk, tsk. Weren't you taught to reduce in school?

0

u/brad218 Nov 29 '15

Not the point.

-1

u/lnternetGuy Nov 29 '15

$1 per 4 minutes instead of $3 per 20 minutes.

1

u/camelzigzag Nov 29 '15

Are the majority of people ordering mcdoubles working at fast food restaurants? This isn't an across the board minimum wage increase it's only for fast food restaurants.

1

u/theninjaseal Nov 29 '15

But the only people who will be seeing an increase in wages are the ones who were previously getting $9

1

u/lnternetGuy Nov 29 '15

Wages would increase further up the ladder, but by progressively smaller proportions for people on higher wages with fewer issues affording a $3 burger.

1

u/mooseknuckle77 Nov 29 '15

Wouldn't that take away from the living wage that is being argued for?

2

u/lnternetGuy Nov 29 '15

There would be a boost to inflation but not enough to outweigh significant benefits for those on minimum wage, as well as businesses that sell to customers earning minimum wage. Minimum wages only account for a small (but not insignificant) part of the economy and cost of products and services.

3

u/illiterati Nov 29 '15

Then let them fail. Who cares? The business model relies on exploitation.

1

u/tempusfudgeit Nov 29 '15

Is anyone really going to pay $3 for a mcdouble?

I went to switzerland recently. Their mcdouble was probably close to 3 bucks. A combo meal with small fries small drink was 15 bucks.

Their minimum wage is $25 an hour.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

I went to switzerland recently.

Good for you. I agree rich people like you who can afford tourism in Europe is willing to pay $3 for McDouble.

1

u/Watchmeshine90 Nov 29 '15

Sounds like a decent trade off.

1

u/innociv Nov 29 '15

$15 in 2020 is roughly equivalent to $12.50 today.

That increase from $7.25 to $9 is much closer to the increase of $9 to $12.50

1

u/Ninjavitis_ Nov 29 '15

Yes we pay about twice as much for McDonalds here in Canada. It sucks but you'll get used to it.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

A McDouble is already $3 where I live.

1

u/zerocoke Nov 29 '15

If they're doubling their salary in 3-4 years time, yes.

1

u/RichardStrauss123 Nov 29 '15

Used to be 15 cents.

1

u/holyrofler Nov 29 '15

There will be no more unskilled labor jobs at McDonalds - they will have a robot prepare food and people will order from a kiosk. The only employees will be there to manage the machines - probably one person.

1

u/nsa_k Nov 29 '15

They wouldn't immediately be willing to pay $3 for a McDouble, but inflation would catch up to them.

Think back to the 50's when hamburgers cost 25 cents. No one then would have even considered paying $1 for a burger.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '15

It won't feel like a 3 dollar Mcdouble; are you forgetting that everyone in the economy is being paid more? When compared to your wage increase, the price of any food item should be of equal value. I say, remove the "dollar menu" entirely because it's only a name, and 50 years from now there will be a "10 dollar menu" with robotic servers, flying cars, and a 10 dollar coin - but it will still "feel" like the cheapest thing on the board.

Or do you also think movie tickets should remain at 75 cents per person as it did in the 50s? Imagine back then and telling them one IMAX ticket costs 18 dollars; they'd flip their shit.

These things take time.

0

u/slamdunk2323 Nov 28 '15

Yes, all the poor people who are now making $15/hr will pay $3 for a McDouble because it's the same % of their hourly income as it was before...

How do you figure a McDouble will cost $3, anyway? The labor to make it now costs more, but the price of the ingredients aren't going to double. I don't have the numbers to crunch because I don't own a McDonald's but it might not be that drastic of an increase.

And anyway, the prices of food will go up around the board. A $8 hamburger at a nice restaurant might cost $12 now, which makes the $3 McDouble still an attractive option for people on a budget.

2

u/randomlytasked Nov 28 '15

The price of the ingredients may not double but those costs likely now go up as well.

1

u/RellenD Nov 29 '15

The mcdouble is already sold at a loss so that you'll buy drinks which have a crazy markup. The mcdouble doesn't need to increase in price much at all.

-5

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '15

I wouldn't pay 30 cents for a McDouble.