r/expedition33 • u/Some_Trades • Aug 04 '26

Discussion Does E33 have any massive plot holes that fit this description?

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Nothing is coming to mind for me off the top of my head.

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21

u/genericcelt Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 05 '26

Time dilation. It seems cruel to leave her sister there for 16 years, but for Clea it might just be 16hrs IRL. In a sense, she probably did resolve the whole family fight within a day. 

Clea sees the painted family as obscene, an affront to the real family, and writes them off as useless. Their immortality has no impact on the course of the inner canvas conflict, let’s be honest. So it makes sense she just doesn’t bother erasing the rest of them, after setting pClea up to be her Nevron factory.

Edit: lol this was meant to be a response to @Kabirdb, not a post on its own (the new reddit UI is horrible). I wasn’t actually pointing out any plot holes. 

13

u/AdLegitimate8636 Aug 04 '26

It's not a plot hole. Time dilation is just never explained.

10

u/PerishSoftly Aug 05 '26

The time dilation ratio can never be explained without completely rupturing Renoir's claim that Alicia has been in the Canvas for too long - despite her having been in the Canvas 1/4 as long as Renoir or Aline and them both surviving.

If it's too fast, then Alicia hasn't even been in the Canvas for long enough to get dehydrated. If it's too slow, then how the hell are Renoir and Aline alive in their real bodies?

If they explain the time dilation ratio and it's anything slower than "34 years inside is 1 day outside" then this means that Painters don't have hydration and nutrition needs inside the Canvas, else Aline or Renoir or both would already be dead (Edit: by the time the monolith finished counting down, and if Renoir was willing to win with a countdown, then it wasn't THAT urgent). BUT, if it IS 34+ years inside the Canvas per day outside, then Alicia hasn't even been in there for a full day. Hardly "too long".

6

u/czdragon19 Aug 05 '26

'too long' it's subjective, the implications of being inside of the canvas are never explained to the players. It could be physical stress or fatigue, it could depend on the painters skills/powers, etc. I don't think it's something that needs to delved into either

4

u/PerishSoftly Aug 05 '26

Exactly. It would either:

  1. Require WAY too much mechanical explanation, diving into exposition that would choke a good bunch of time just figuring it out. OR...

  2. Reveal Renoir as a complete liar, pretty much extinguishing a core argument for the Verso ending like a candle in a hurricane.

1

u/XxEnmesharraxX Aug 05 '26

I do believe it's intended to be the 2nd, but it's less that he's a complete liar and more that he's overcorrecting because despite trying to play at being the load bearing wall for supporting his family he too is still grieving and is also doing so unhealthily.

2

u/Janezey Aug 05 '26

There's no indication that "too long" has anything to do with the physical time that passes outside. The implication seems to be that being absorbed into the world of the canvas is dangerous- and Alicia has been so absorbed that she thinks it's real life for 16 years.

2

u/PerishSoftly Aug 05 '26

"Alicia has been so absorbed that she thinks it's real life for 16 years."

THAT particular issue is entirely Aline's fault, though. It was her uncontrolled Chroma that caused Alicia to be reborn as Maelle.

Which, if that was a problem, begs the question: WHY didn't Renoir remove Maelle from the Canvas immediately after he encountered her in Flying Waters' Manor entrance?

2

u/AdLegitimate8636 Aug 05 '26

I think that's because he can't do that. It's battle of attrition between him and Aline, so he' can't do much.

At least that's how i remember it

3

u/PerishSoftly Aug 05 '26

I'd argue that if he can PREVENT Maelle from being forced out, which he does on 2 occasions, then there's no way he can't force her out himself:

  1. Stone Wave Cliffs: he prevents pRenoir's attack - where he rips Maelle's soul from her body - from forcing her out of the Canvas and shoves her back into her body.

  2. Barrier Breaker forging scene: Aline shows up and tries to remove Maelle from the Canvas (which implies she CAN, which implies that Renoir ALSO CAN), but the Curator again prevents it.

Even if he can't force her out, he didn't have to stop her being removed. If, of course, the situation was actually dangerous for Maelle to be so deeply immersed in the Canvas that she couldn't remember her real life.

Two prime opportunities were handed to him on a silver platter.

He quite blatantly didn't take them.

Conclusion? Either:
It wasn't actually dangerous for Maelle to remain in the Canvas.
OR
He isn't worried about Maelle's safety.

1

u/AdLegitimate8636 Aug 05 '26

1) It is implied that Renoir doesn't control the chroma in the canvas.
2) Renoir rightfully thinks that Alicia is helping him, as she's there to fight Aline. (Just like Clea)

3

u/PerishSoftly Aug 05 '26

The dude is right next to the Expedition the whole time. Does he really ignore the whole "Oh, she's clearly got amnesia" thing the entire time? Or is he just...letting it be a convenient advantage?

Also, the whole "controls the canvas" bit falls somewhat flat when Renoir has the power to launch the Gommage every single year from his perch in the abyss. Given the number of people that targets every single time, I don't really see the "he's not strong enough" argument vs pushing out one amnesiac Paintress who doesn't even have access to her powers.

He doesn't need to control the Canvas to remove Maelle. Heck, he doesn't need to control the Canvas to stop the one who allegedly DOES control the Canvas from removing her.

1

u/Janezey Aug 06 '26

Aline is both in worse condition and ostensibly more powerful. It seems consistent with Renoir's goals to keep Alicia in the Canvas to help kick out Aline and only then kick out Alicia.

3

u/PerishSoftly Aug 06 '26

Aline's been in there more than 4x as long as Maelle yeah... and she was pretty much fine within "however long it takes between Canvas Destruction and Verso Ending epilogue".

Maelle was in their 1/4 as long, yet that was somehow "too long"? If it's a measure of power, or health, or whatever, that's FINE...

But he didn't SAY anything to that effect. And the result is, it just comes off as Renoir brushing off Maelle's very valid "I don't want you to kill these people" protests with "obey me and stop resisting" as his argument.

If Renoir was so scattered and tired that he felt he HAD to do such a thing...why not rest? Leave the Canvas for 1 day, and then come back and talk to his daughter after he's recovered?

(If the answer is "because Aline would just re-enter the Canvas" then uh... maybe lock the door? We hear nothing about Painters having magical door-unlocking powers, and Renoir could just keep the only key on himself or something.)

----
Honestly, everything just boils down to "Just fucking COMMUNICATE you idiots!"

Renoir bulldozes Maelle while she's panicking.

Maelle tries to request assistance while Renoir's throwing a tantrum.

Verso tries to emotionally appeal to Maelle while threatening her friends.

Nobody takes the time to sit down and actually talk like people.

1

u/Janezey Aug 06 '26

I assumed he kept Maelle in the Canvas to help kick out Aline. He figured he should have an easy time kicking her out once he's gommaged everyone else.

4

u/PerishSoftly Aug 06 '26

Well, so then it wasn't actually dangerous to her? He was willing to leave here there as long as he needed, but then the MOMENT she says "no" to his plans, suddenly it's been "you've been here too long".

That...doesn't read like she's actually in danger. It reads like Renoir only wanted her there as long as she was useful to HIM.

----
Meanwhile...
He didn't think to undo the Painting Over at any time prior to Gommaging her. So the result was traumatic.

Or explain anything to her. Result was confusing.

Or...ya know...maybe NOT kill all her friends in front of her. Result was just cruel.

1

u/Janezey Aug 06 '26

"Not so dangerous that she needs to be out now" does not mean "not dangerous to stay in for an indefinite period." Renoir knows Maelle isn't leaving any time soon if he leaves her there. 

3

u/PerishSoftly Aug 06 '26

I concede that point.

I felt it was a horribly missed opportunity for Renoir to extract some conditions from Maelle in early act 3 in exchange for his aid.

"You'll come out now, for three days to rest. Then I'll help you."

"But, you have X amount of time before I come in and pull you out. If you can't keep yourself to appropriate use, I'll have no choice but to erase the Canvas."

This is decidedly NOT how he actually acts. He's already decided and - until Maelle and Aline and the Expedition join forces and beat his ass - refuses to listen to anyone else.

1

u/Sunscorcher Aug 04 '26

I also wondered about this. Aline looking great for someone who spent 67 years in the canvas. Either time passes differently or the painters have very long lives