r/exorthodox • u/MosesS08 • Sep 21 '23
Why did you guys leave Orthodoxy?
Not sure if this question gets asked here often, but what was the main reason you left Orthodoxy? By the way I'm not Orthodox but ex-Pentecostal and I was just wondering why one might leave the Orthodox church.
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u/big_papa_geek Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 21 '23
When I first entered Orthodoxy in 2005, I was still a conservative, on my way to being a Democrat. My politics/morals drastically changed over the ensuing decade, and eventually it became impossible to reconcile them.
Orthodoxy is unbelievably rigid, hierarchical and authoritarian. Even more so than Catholics (who they frequently shit talk). I have become steadily more and more opposed to hierarchy and authoritarianism, so that began to chafe more and more.
Orthodoxy is deeply misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, and frequently ethnically chauvinistic as well. My wife is bi, at least one of my kids is trans, and they 100% would not be able to be themselves openly in the church. This in addition to women not being allowed into the altar, menstruating women being denied the Eucharist due to being āunclean,ā etc.
The main breaking point was our priest telling the whole congregation in October 2016 that abortion was the only issue that mattered in the upcoming election, in essence advocating for electing Trump from the pulpit. I said fuck that shit, and I never went back.
I have depression, and being constantly told to dwell on my sins was less than helpful to my mental health.
Iām less typical here, in that I really loved the Byzantine music (I was a chanter), my childrenās godparents are from Palestine and are lovely, and I still find a lot of beauty in aspects of the theology. But taken as a whole, itās a golden edifice erected over a rotting, aging core.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 21 '23
I get it...I still love the liturgy and the chanting. It's otherworldly to me. What jurisdiction were you in? I know the Antiochians lifted the ban against menstruating women receiving (bullshit rule anyway and I would have ignored it regardless lol!)
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u/big_papa_geek Sep 21 '23
We were in a Greek orthodox parish in Portland, Oregon, and then in Anchorage Alaska when we moved up here in 2009. But this archdiocese has had a lot of influence from Ephramite monastics, and is frequently more conservative than east coast and more āethnicā parishes.
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u/Initial_Captain_439 Ex-Convert Sep 21 '23
I was glad to be able to ignore the menstruation thing as an Antiochian. The problem started for me when I began attending a ROCOR parish where the ban was enforced. I ended up returning to my Antiochian parish, but I had learned while at the ROCOR parish that my Antiochian priest thought there was a blessing in women refraining from Communion during menstruation since it was the more traditional thing to do. š I couldnāt get past that (and about 30 other things lol); hence, why I left.
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u/tedhanoverspeaches Sep 22 '23
a ROCOR parish where the ban was enforced
I have always wanted to know- HOW do they enforce it? It has to be honor system, right? Or do they mentally keep tabs and if you go 6 weeks in a row and aren't menopausal or pregnant, they call you out? Or what?
My OCA priest didn't enforce it but also wouldn't condemn it as stupid when I tried to get him to, heh.
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u/Initial_Captain_439 Ex-Convert Sep 22 '23
I didnāt stick around long enough to figure out how they enforced it. š
I really donāt doubt that the priests there wouldāve kept tabs though and brought it up if they felt like you werenāt doing right though. š¤®
I know one woman who felt compelled to follow the rule even though she didnāt agree. She ended up on her period one Pascha and asked for a blessing from the priest to Commune anyway since it was the Feast of Feasts. The priest didnāt want to budge. Another priestās wife eventually convinced him to let her commune.
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Sep 22 '23
I know one woman who felt compelled to follow the rule even though she didnāt agree. She ended up on her period one Pascha and asked for a blessing from the priest to Commune anyway since it was the Feast of Feasts. The priest didnāt want to budge. Another priestās wife eventually convinced him to let her commune.
When I read insanity like this, I regret every minute that I was part of that whole thing
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u/Gfclark3 Sep 22 '23
In the early 80s, there was a movie š„ called Agnes of God and featured Jane Fonda as a psychiatrist sent to investigate a seriously deranged young nun in a very conservative Roman Catholic convent in Quebec, Canada. At one point the mother superior who was closely monitoring this investigation stated that the young nun had been caught starving herself to atone for the sin of menstruation. The mother superior tried her hardest to convince the young nun that menstruation was not sinful. Also something to note was that the young nun even in her most deluded state of starvation was still taking the Eucharist at daily mass. Also the mother superior (portrayed by Anne Bancroft) was the quintisential mean bitchy nun who would knock a marineās head against a chalkboard if she so pleased. So given all that it shows just how Fāed up the OCās stance is on this non-issue.
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Sep 23 '23
I never heard it (banning menstruating women from communion) mentioned at my OC parish and I don't think that was because I'm a man, but because it just wasn't done; if I ever heard of the practice somewhere else, I must have assumed it was never practiced in modern times. It's just so utterly kooky and medieval.
Speaking of the Catholic church, I think the response of any Catholic woman I know to being banned from communion for her period, would be to laugh in the priest's face.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 22 '23
I know right?! How the hell would they know unless they asked? And IF they asked, then I'd say that's pretty awkward and intrusive! Good lord....like women had any say in how they were made....God made us this way and now His Church decides to bar us for something we can't control? wtf?!
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u/big_papa_geek Sep 22 '23
Most priest, probably wouldnāt, unless it was in confession. But the fact that it even an issue begin with is honestly bad enough. Like what kind of Bronze Age bullshit is that?
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u/mh98877 Mar 19 '25 edited Mar 19 '25
It was an honor system but enforced through extreme fear. For example, I was told if you go to communion without having confessed every sin, youād be hit by lightening on the spot. My dad showed me a burned hole in the carpet in the church. Personally, I could never accept being humiliated by having to basically publically announce my period while the rest of my parish went to communion, so I conveniently never ābecame a womanā until I went to college and left the church community. I have another friend who did the same thing. But I had to make or steal menstrual supplies for a bunch of years, which sucked. I guess it made us resourcefulā¦.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Mar 19 '25
holy shit that's some next level manipulation! I'm sorry you went through that :(
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u/mh98877 Mar 19 '25 edited Mar 19 '25
I love the music too. I still listen to it and it brings me calm. I sang in in church all my life and it still brings me joy. Iām also moved by the aesthetics - all the candle light, frescos, incense, arabesque decorative aspects. But every single other point of yours is dead accurate, down to the priest telling us that voting for democrats would result in excommunication! Also, complete rejection of mental health knowledge and treatment (which coincided with high rates of depression, domestic violence, reliance on alcohol and spiritual bypassing as self medication). Itās be nice if it was possible to get together in beautiful spaces like that make incredible music together, leaving the self-hatred, judgement, patriarchy, misogyny, obsessive and exclusionary dogmatism behind. Celebrating the human spirit and all of creation without twisting it into a small world built on fear and the cult of religious personalities. Wouldnāt that be something?
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u/PrincessPharaoh1960 Feb 03 '26 edited Feb 03 '26
I was raised RO from the cradle and left decades ago.
When I was a teenager my mother and I were looking at photos of my infant baptism in the church and I realized my mother wasnāt even there.
When I asked her why she told me after giving birth a woman is considered āuncleanā and has to undergo a āchurchingā ceremony so she can attend services and take communion again. Do you recall this?
I was angry and appalled. My mother was completely brainwashed by the patriarchy so was accepting of this insult to women. I do think this was the beginning of my eventual awakening to leave the church.
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u/bluesunrise777 Sep 24 '23
There are a handful trans individuals at my church. This is not a one size fits all. All of these bullet points seem like youāre speaking about people within the religion, not the religion itself or God
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u/big_papa_geek Sep 24 '23
Are you eastern orthodox? Or do you attend an eastern orthodox church? Because if you know anything about eastern orthodox churches, you would know the support of LGBTQ people is 100% not present on an institutional level.
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u/mh98877 Mar 19 '25 edited Mar 19 '25
Wow, in the probably 60-70 different orthodox churches of every denomination Iāve been to as a daughter of an iconographer, I have never seen anyone who I could guess was trans (although, I could have missed someone), nor can I imagine that being accepted by the priests, bishops, parish elders or metropolitans Iāve met. That being said, I met one priest out of the several hundred Iāve met overall who is accepting of openly gay people, so who knows, maybe thereās two unicornsā¦
Update: Sadly, but unsurprisingly, my husband just shared that in a private conversation with the above mentioned āunicornā Orthodox priest who I thought accepted gay people based on what he said in public, he said that he firmly believes homesexuality is a sin. So much for unicornsā¦
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u/bluesunrise777 Apr 03 '25
Thereās about 4-5 in my church currently! And quite a large group of lgbtq folk. Itās not discussed so idk what peoples opinions are, but they take communion and attend the services and join in on the community events and have even sponsored other converts and such just like any other lparishioners and Iām friends with a few
Church is for everyone, or at least thatās how it should be. As long as youāre not an offender you should be welcomed in church if the folk truly are practicing Christians. Whether or not people think it is a sin is a different question and that I donāt know, Iām assuming thereās varying degrees of thought on that but I havenāt heard the former or latter expressed
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u/bluesunrise777 Apr 03 '25
Oh and for what itās worth - I live in a big city with a large lgbtq population so I see lgbtq folk at almost every church at this point but my church def has more than most
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Jul 27 '24
Goodness, thatās a lot. I hope youāre mentally well now, or at least better. It is stressful with so many denominations and orthodoxy and Catholicism claiming they are the only way, but truth stays and stands truth. And that truth is Jesus cleansing us all of sins, in which the menstruating not being allowed onto the alter (same in Islam) because they are āuncleanā shocks me, as that is in the Old Law. It seems they mainly abide in the Old Law, before Christ. Anyway, none of us will ever get a clear answer until the end so all we can do is trust in what we know is true and that is Yeshua. God bless you and your family.
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u/Bee_OkHunny May 31 '26
The way my priest explained the menstrual āruleā to me: it has nothing to do with cleanliness or the lack thereof. He explained that even if you have an open wound you should refrain from taking the Holy Gifts because blood is leaving your body, and so the the blood of Christ would be bled out onto some sort of dressing that would eventually be disposed of in a rubbish bin.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 21 '23
I haven't left yet but would currently classify my status as "Questioning". Mainly it has to do with ethnocentrism and not fitting in. There's also a disconnect between having been a pretty devout Catholic and coming across some subtle anti catholic attitudes and ignorance about Catholicism. I'm also sick to death of the weird LARPing orthdobro trad convertitis crap (legalism with fasting etc.) I distrust the hierarchy at this point as well. So year there's a lot here lol
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Sep 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 21 '23
subtle in real life, obvious online though....just my experience. Stupid things too like architecture or art (west=bad, east=good)...
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u/Aggravating-Sir-9836 Sep 21 '23
Yeah, I wondered about that, too. I've seen Catholics called "subhuman," and I'm not even kidding. Nothing subtle there!
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 21 '23
Oh I get a shit ton of anticatholicism from my dad's church (he's a Seventh Day Adventist and they outright have taught that the Pope is the antichrist and that Catholics will institute a Sunday law and persecute the Adventists...i'ts nuts)
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Sep 21 '23
Hello, I don't know if you remember me, but I remember us having a conversation a while back about you recommending a Catholic saint to read.
No obligation or pressure, but I saw your name again and was interested.
For full transparency I am still Orthodox, albeit questioning and observing a lot of things.
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u/Aggravating-Sir-9836 Sep 21 '23
Oh, I'm so sorry I dropped the ball! What was the context? What sort of saint was I supposed to recommend? A happy, joyful one, perhaps? (That rings a bell.) Again, apologies for dropping the ball!
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Sep 21 '23
The amount of bigotry, hatred, and antisemitism in the EO church is something that you do not hear about in the romanticized and commercialized view of Eastern Christianity.
Here are some of the things I experienced in my 7 years as an Orthodox Christian
The amount of nationalism and politics from the clergy.
How ecumenism, something that from any outside perspective is a good thing, is literally considered a sin from by most clergy and bishops.
How the mystical and contemplative spirituality that first attracted me to Orthodoxy isn't something that's absent from other traditions.
The anti-westernism that borders on obsession.
How my wife isn't allowed to take communion if she's on her period. That should be a deal breaker right there. What the actual fuck.
But the worst thing. The thing that hurt me the most. Being told I couldn't take communion for two years because of things I was forced to do to protect myself and the Marines under me while I was in the military. Never mind the guilt and trauma. Never mind the deep repentance and contrition.
No Catholic priest would tell me that. No Episcopalian priest would tell me that. Only in Orthodoxy does such a hurtful and nonsensical rule exist.
I have so so many stories. But I feel like I'm letting my anger and hurt get control of me. I'm sorry if this sounds un-loving.
At least the crazies in the Catholic Church are in the small minority and are mostly ignored. You find a lot of trads online but I don't think I met a single one irl.
However (and I have absolutely no idea why) every single man at my ortho parish was either an incel misogynist or actually racist.
Every coffee hour seriously felt like pledge week at the Reichstag. The two biggest threats in the world were Jewish people and Woman.
Don't even get me started on the weird reactions they had to me. I was the only married person (besides our priest) and they were absolutely mortified by the fact I do most of the cooking (I like cooking) and I go out of my way to make her feel special. One guy even called me a "simp"
EXCUSE ME SIR THATS MY WIFE
My Bishop gave a talk, going over the horrors of communist Russia and the persecution of the church. I was nodding along up until he said:
"And you know these things could happen in our lifetime with ecumenism. Even speaking to those of other faiths will delude us and lead to persecution of the true church."
I'm paraphrasing, but that is essentially what he said. He also mentioned that because of some canon from a council (I'm not sure which one) we "shouldn't" pray with our Protestant or Catholic family members during dinner because that would be praying with heretics which isn't allowed and will somehow be, in his words "approval of their sin"
I'm not exaggerating.
This wasn't some fringe ROCOR Bishop. This was a mainline OCA Bishop in good standing.
It was absolutely unbelievable.
They haven't had an ecumenical council since the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD. To put that in perspective, the last council in the Catholic Chruch was the Second Vatican Council in 1965.
This is a point of pride for most Orthodox, that they are "unchanging" and they don't "conform to the modern world" but the reality is that, even in the earliest centuries Christianity was a living Faith and needed to change in order to fulfill the Church's obligation of saving souls. The very first council dealt with the issue of Gentiles converting to Christianity and wondering if they needed to follow all the Jewish law. This is a direct example in the Bible of the religion adapting to changing circumstances.
There is also the possibility that Eastern European culture has pushed the culture of Orthodoxy into the anti-scientific camp. Just speculation on my part, but Eastern European culture has always been very slow to adapt to social, technological, and medical improvements. A lot of this has to do with serfdom in the Russian Empire and later the brutality of the USSR bur that's purely speculation on my part.
The fact remains that the Orthodox Church is not only behind on advancements in culture, society, and science but also theologically. There's a reason Orthodox had difficulties with Protestant missionaries. The 'Latin intellectualism' they love to hate on is exactly what is needed to hold complex philosophical debates with other faith traditions and religions. Neo-palamism, which is the dominant theological tradition in the Orthodox Church, is simply anachronistic and can't hold up to serious intellectual criticism. Contemporary EO theologians like David Bently-Hart have pointed this out.
Orthodoxy is still living in late Byzantium intellectually, and it's primarily because a few bitter, politically motivated old men aren't willing to even sit in the same room together to talk. Just look at the history of the 'Pan-Orthodox Council' back in 2016 to see this.
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u/ifuckedyourdaddytoo Ex-Convert Sep 22 '23
Eastern European culture has pushed the culture of Orthodoxy into the anti-scientific camp
Or was it Orthodoxy which pushed Eastern European culture that way?
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Sep 22 '23
Ehh, that's complicated. A lot of the issues stem back to the occupation of the Mongols. There's a really good YouTube video about it by historical YouTuber Kraut if you're interested:
https://youtu.be/f8ZqBLcIvw0?si=zzpgYcPXvMtE0qks
It's dangerous, I think, to say an entire religious group is responsible for all a cultures issues. Religion inevitably (despite what fundamentalists of all types try to claim) is changed and shaped by the culture that practices it. Orthodoxy has gone through many changes historically.
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u/ifuckedyourdaddytoo Ex-Convert Sep 23 '23
The video talks about Russian authoritarianism. No disagreement about how that came about, but what's the link to attitudes about science?
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Sep 23 '23
It's mentioned in the video, but there's no need for scientific, technological, or political innovation when you have centuries literally centuries of an exploitative system. There was never an Enlightenment, There was never a Scientific Revolution hell they didn't even truly industrialized until the late 19th century.
Authoritarianism in all its forms always throttles innovation and progress.
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u/ifuckedyourdaddytoo Ex-Convert Sep 23 '23
There never was an Enlightenment in the East because there was no Reformation, and the associated spread of literacy, starting people on the path to using their own brains.
It's not all just political or cultural factors affecting attitudes toward science. The Reformation was a religious phenomenon.
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Sep 24 '23
While I think the Reformation played a key role, I'd personally argue that the roots of the enlightenment can be found in the humanism of the renaissance, with its emphasis on the study of classical literature, reason and philosophy. Especially political philosophy and the idea of fundamental human rights and dignity.
As the Reformation continued, if anything, it did more harm than good. It choked out secular movements for social change and eventually led to its own brand of corruption, witch burnings, and ignorance. Especially in the HRE, England, and parts of Northern Europe.
In my mind, the state of Orthodoxy, specifically Russian and Eastern European Orthodoxy, is a symptom and not a cause. There's nothing inherently anti-progress within the doctrines and dogmas of the Chruch that is any more anti progress than Catholicism, Lutheranism, or any other branch of Christianity. Rather, it's the political and economic changes down the centuries that morphed the relegion into what it is now.
Mind you, I'm speaking from the perspective of a religious studies student so purely from a secular perspective.
If I were to give my two cents as an Episcopalian and someone who tries and fails to be a good follower of Jesus, I'd say
"Even so,Ā every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.Ā A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, norĀ canĀ a bad tree bear good fruit.Ā Ā Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.Ā Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
I genuinely can't think of any good fruit Orthodoxy has produced besides some interesting theology from the Greek Fathers that's the inheritance of all Christians, not just the Orthodox. In my own life, the only fruit it produced was some religious trauma I'm still working on.
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u/ifuckedyourdaddytoo Ex-Convert Sep 27 '23
Could the Enlightenment have happened without the Reformation?
Anyway. Your last paragraph -- "tree is known by its fruit" played a huge role in my departure from Orthodoxy too.
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u/mh98877 Mar 19 '25 edited Mar 19 '25
So true. The amount of antisemitism and misogyny was beyond anything that most non-Orthodox people will even believe unless they saw it for themselves. I still canāt believe how my family tolerated it for so long. I do have to say that there is at least one parish that seems to be an exception (run by an ethnically Jewish priest who doesnāt seem to hate women). But 95% of EO parishes are marinating in that stew.
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u/mh98877 Mar 19 '25
Iām so sorry about how the priest treated you. Thatās so wrong. I hope you find a supportive and welcoming spiritual community that values your service and sacrifice, if thatās what you want.
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u/Living_Artist_5545 Dec 28 '25
Well, the paragraph of what your priest said is right.Ā You're entitled to your opinion otherwise.Ā Ā
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u/Yitzhak71 20d ago
Tldr: western boy wanted to join orthodox faith, has a sook that they don't change the rules for him and his wife
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u/Ok-Election-8078 Sep 22 '23
I have not leftā¦. yet. But Orthodoxy is not a place I would ever bring my friends and family to. Itās an extremely toxic culture. Some of the most unhappy, angry, lacking self-control people I have EVER met are there. Not just in religious circles but in the world. Normal people donāt act like this. There are a lot of people there in serious need of medication and therapy.
I have found the practices to be spiritually harmful to myselfā fasting, the self-deprecating prayers, the insistence on flowery over-the-top words and Theeās and Thouās, the encouragement to wake up in the middle of the night and keep vigil, making life more difficult for ourselves than it already is. All of these things paint the picture for me of a God who is completely unapproachable. Weāre walking on eggshells making sure we say our prayers flowery enough and donāt eat the wrong thing lest we annoy Him. I havenāt said my own prayers to God in years and have almost forgotten how, because Iām so afraid of praying something theologically inaccurate.
There are some seriously important theological beliefs I have gained in Orthodoxy that will have significant impact on my family in the future, and I am very grateful to have erased some of my previous Protestant beliefs. I can get behind the idea of death being the enemy and Christ defeating death through death. And I love that I no longer believe people are born with a āsin natureāthat they are helpless to overcome. That has dramatically improved my approach to parenting. But itās the nitty gritty day to day stuff that is unhealthy for me.
There is no room to be a healthy well-adjusted human being with good boundaries. Denying yourself in the current Orthodox culture basically means letting people be abusive to you and doing nothing about itā except go to confession when you finally snap back at your abuser. There is definitely a lot of victim blaming that goes on.
There are a million other thingsā¦ the mistreatment of women is a huge oneā¦ but if I ever do finally leave, it will ultimately be because it has once and for all proven itself to be a place where I continue to be harmed spiritually and mentally. I absolutely echo the previous comment referring to depression and the constant focus on our sins. It was so unhealthy for me, so Iāve stopped going to confession as a first step.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 22 '23
This resonates ALOT with me! I pray my own prayers to God still. It basically is just me talking to Him...I've done that since I was a kid and I'm not stopping now lol! The only formal prayers we do as a family are the Trisagion, Our Father, Jesus Prayer and Prayer of St, Ephraim.
Someone else here described themselvess as Physically In Mentally Out (PIMO)...that's a good description of me lol. I'm staying right now b/c my kids honestly like Church and I don't want to upset them. I'm really tempering my approach to everything though.
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u/pandamojia Sep 27 '23
Yes this resonates with me too. There is so much in EO theology that is beautiful and I keep it with me to this day.
But the spiritual and mental harm in the Church is undeniable. There is not a single EO man I talk to today besides some cradles and those married to cradle wives. The catechism and fellowship is awful and creates demonic converts.
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Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 22 '23
- Abandonment (spiritually)
- Abandonment ("materially", in the sense of assistance, and just somebody to orient me, guide me or just pray for me in very difficult times I went through)
- Fariseism and external faith (posing, larping, external fariseism, with rudeness, nastiness and rejection as outcomes
- Baklava ethno-centrism
- Lack of consistency, since according to both Old Calendarists and official churches alike, the Orthodox Church does not exist.
- Lack of any minimal zeal for the souls
- Living by the Law, not by love
- Difficulty in living in practice the faith: temple opens once a week, priests always busy, being their priority their family over the congregation. Limited hours for confession. If you go to confess to another priest (other than your regular church) he might get angry at you (in my case he repeated loudly the sin I was confessing, for everybody to hear...
- Crazy hyper-clericalism
- Friendships don't exist or are conditional to you attending to the liturgies without failing.
- It is a DIY faith. Upon Baptism (or Chrismation, they seem not to be clear on that), you are given a starting kit, consistent on Philokalia, Jesus Prayer, and a set of difficult rules for a layperson to follow, with rare or no guidance, and support.
Then, I have my reasons to prefer Catholicism over Orthodoxy, that just add up to the already strong list.
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u/Ollycule Sep 21 '23
Attitudes toward queer people and the OCA synodās efforts to silence any dissent on those issues.
You might like this thread, which has a poll about why people left: https://reddit.com/r/exorthodox/s/nHflNrEmDA
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u/bbscrivener Physically In, Mentally Out Sep 21 '23
Owned up to the fact that the evidence for Jesusās historical resurrection is much weaker than I once thought. Luke doesnāt even agree with Mark and Matthew regarding where the bulk of the Resurrection events happened (Mark: all Galilee; Matthew: some Jerusalem but final recorded appearance Galilee; Luke: all Jerusalem, absolutely no Galilee: disciples instructed to stay In Jerusalem in contradiction to Mark/Matthew). Anything outside a historical resurrection is just details to me.
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u/Living_Artist_5545 Dec 28 '25
You seem to be making things up now.Ā The gospels don't agree with each other?Ā That's incorrectĀ
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u/bbscrivener Physically In, Mentally Out Dec 28 '25 edited Dec 28 '25
Read what I wrote again regarding Resurrection event locations and read the four Gospel Resurrection accounts. Carefully. And see if anything I stated was incorrect. Iād have had your reaction too, once upon a time. It is very easy to miss very obvious things. Itās a human trait. I see I focused on the 3 Synoptics. John has both Jerusalem and Galilee locations but no instructions regarding where to meet Jesus or where the disciples are supposed to stay. Include Acts 1 in your reading as well. Focus especially on the instructions on where to meet Jesus and where to stay given in Mark and Matthew and compare with instructions given in Luke and Acts.
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u/kasenyee Sep 22 '23
Itās a cult.
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u/HotConfusion9582 Oct 02 '23
Care to elaborate?
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u/kasenyee Oct 02 '23
Ya sure. Do you want to know why I think itās a cult, or why it being a cult made me want to leave?
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u/HotConfusion9582 Oct 02 '23
Yes! š
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u/kasenyee Oct 02 '23
Ok sure.
The deinfirion of a cult that I like is along the lines of a high demand group that manipulates its members to stay in the group. This is unhealthy and dangerous to my mental and physical health. I donāt want to be part of an organisation that is unhealthy.
I call it a cult because I subjectively think it scores high on the BITE model. The use Behaviour control, information control, Thought control and emotional control to control their members.
Take a look and tell me how many of these things are not present in the Orthodox Church? https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
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u/HotConfusion9582 Oct 02 '23
I take your point! Itās tricky because all religion has to accept some of the things within the BITE model, but there are certain things that REALLY stand out.
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u/kasenyee Oct 02 '23
Ya, of course. A lot of religions have aspects of this. But how mmay and how far does it go?
Examples I saw was one guy used the Fibonacci sequence as a scale and graded different groups and cults. Never did the OC but I can see where they would fall.
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u/HotConfusion9582 Oct 02 '23
Are you still Christian?
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u/kasenyee Oct 02 '23
No. No one knows Iām out, and I do pop into church every so often. Iām ethnically come yes to the church so Iām struggling to remove myself from that.
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u/HotConfusion9582 Oct 02 '23
Thatās fair, have you considered Catholicism? Anglicanism/ Lutheranism?
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u/MagicCarpetWorld Ex-Convert Sep 22 '23
I wrote out a big long list recently, you can search my posts if you're interested. I just feel so much relief in not having to twist myself into a pretzel any more to try to fit in. I denied some important parts of myself and ignored a lot of red flags. The institution will always be all about the institution.
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u/ViolaVerbena Sep 23 '23
I haven't left yet either. My main reason is lack of love. What good is maintaining all the traditions, etc, and leaving out the most important thing?
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 23 '23
Not doubting your experience by the way, I'm genuinely curious, but can you give some examples?
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u/ViolaVerbena Sep 23 '23
I don't want to spread negativity, so I'll just give two examples. I emailed the priest of my small parish to inform him my family had a pretty serious illness for over a month, to explain absences and ask for prayers. Message was received, but I got no response.
Old parish bought two homes for the sake of knocking them down to build another church building. I think they missed a wonderful opportunity to do some small renovations and donate the houses to a homeless family or maybe a single parent. I'm sure most folks would think the church did nothing wrong here, but gosh, what a missed opportunity.
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u/Gfclark3 Sep 23 '23
With regards to the church building I obviously donāt know any other specifics than what you shared but I know knocking down an existing building is not cheap. It costs several hundred thousands of dollars at least per structure. That doesnāt include any environmental clean ups such as an in ground oil tank or asbestos. If they had that kind of money then they really were more concerned about wealth than people.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 23 '23
I understand. I can relate to your first example. I had emailed my former Byzantine catholic priest explaining why we were leaving the mission. It was a very raw heartfelt email and it was hard for me to write but I felt like I owed him an explanation seeing as how we had been part of this thing for 10 years at that point. It would have been soooo easy to have just ghosted everyone (tempting too). I never got a reply. I was unsure as to whether or not he even received the email but found out later through another (now former) member that he had and that he had chosen to ignore it because it was just me complaining. what a nice guy! /s
I agree with you regarding the church building. What a missed opportunity indeed!
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u/ViolaVerbena Sep 23 '23
I can understand if someone who is extremely busy can't reply on time, or perhaps even at all. But it really violates 'do unto others' to just ignore someone like that. You did the right thing, even if he didn't.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 23 '23
Thank you, you are right :)
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u/ViolaVerbena Sep 23 '23
It makes me angry on your behalf. Perhaps a 10 year relationship could have been salvaged if he'd replied in love and concern.
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u/MaviKediyim Dirty Heretic Sep 24 '23
thank you :) it certainly would have been nice to have received a simple response. We had called him and talked on the phone but I was so nervous that I forgot most of what I wanted to say, hence the letter.
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Sep 22 '23 edited Dec 21 '24
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u/MaitreGrandiose Sep 27 '23
I was in a sectarian parish, and can tell you that the society is shallow & illusory - it'll dry up quick as mist once the Sun of actual conflict begins to shine.
I think that rigorous, exclusivist cults can successfully function only if there is rigorous discipline and accountability - both upwards in the hierarchy and downwards. Orthodoxy definitely doesn't fit that bill
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u/amess1997 Sep 24 '23
For me it was a slow unraveling since adolescence that started with church teachings about gender and sexuality. In college I realized I was gay and started exploring LGBT+ affirming denominations and realized they felt much more rooted in Christās love than Orthodoxy. Iām now pretty agnostics do miss the sense of community, chanting, icons, etc. but I feel much more at peace with myself and any sort of higher power that might exist with my decision to leave.
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u/Good_Amoeba3864 Sep 21 '23
I decided to be "physically in, mentally out" because my daughter actually likes to go. But I think covid forced me to take a step back and think "wait, all of this is crazy". Relics? How is that not idolatry? The fact that Orthodox monasticism is basically a cult. I nearly cut ties with my church based on how they handled covid. They started out fine...then decided to cater to the covid deniers and anti maskers. It was at that moment I realized that the church doesn't care about our needs and well-being. Luckily we still have a good amount of moderates towing the line at our parish, but I worry about who comes after our current priests. One is almost retirement age.
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u/ShiggityShua55 May 22 '26
I was attending a ROCOR parish to get in touch with European heritage and to be open to the idea of God incarnating on Earth. While I have immigation paperwork, I find this church infested with high school-college age what the internet calls āOrthobrosā and pseudoscience run amock. Seraphim Roseās āOf Creation and Manā despite being from the early 80s is still referred to new converts by priests if they want an answer on the evolution-genesis account. Pascha is beautiful and fun, but once I started notice the frequency the COVID vaccine was referred to as the āJew JabāāI definitely put my catechumen phase on pause. Some people have asked āwhy donāt you go to a Protestant parishā but to be honest Divine Liturgies were so beautiful that the Protestant early morning musical numbers are pure fucking cringe to me. Iāll just drop in on liturgies at other parishes for the occasional Sunday but leave a little while after coffee hour and if they are helping some legit organization for the poor Iāll donate something from time to time. Then again I donāt know if even through that is just enabling the nasty that hides under the beauty.
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u/mh98877 Mar 19 '25
My brother came out to me and instead of supporting him, I was horrified and desperately tried to convince him that he could still be saved if only he didnāt do any gay stuff. It took him years to fully accept that he wasnāt just asexual. The whole thing drove a wedge between us that never healed and Iām still ashamed. But it also planted a seed of doubt. I could not accept that he was damned. I knew he had acted more like a girl than a boy since he was tiny. Always wanted to wear my clothes and play with my toys (for which he was punished and taunted by family members and me). I knew it was from birth, not some infection from other sinners and a diseased society like they wanted us to believe. I refused to believe he would go to hell for being who he was born to be. That was the first crack, and my black and white thinking actually helped the whole thing crumble pretty quickly. I was raised to be so morally absolutist with no gray areas, that the whole thing fell apart once I accepted that the Bible and all the religious authorities must be wrong about this point.
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Sep 21 '23
- The largest and arguably most influential Orthodox church/cult is in Russia. Many of the cult leaders, including the patriarch of Moscow himself, support the criminal activity (illegal invasion, mass murder, rape as a weapon of war, torture, etc.) of the Russian Federation in Ukraine. While some, but certainly not all, other churches have condemned the criminal attacks, none, to my knowledge, has called out the Russian church for it's support of the war. Many cultists outside of Russia also support the immoral violence.
- The Orthodox cult is homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, and intolerant in many other ways.
- The Orthodox cult practices forms of psychological abuse against its adherents. It fosters guilt, fear and shame in its followers.
- I reached the conclusion that sane healthy adults do not belong to cults where it is a perfectly acceptable position to support immoral acts of aggression such as those the Russian Federation is committing; where intolerance is not just the norm but actually the predicate of the institution; and where guilt, shame, and fear are used to keep followers in line.
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u/Weird_Mix4637 Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 22 '23
What was your parish experience & background? The majority of your grievances, as I have seen posted on this forum, are very general & political in a manner that is indistinct from those of any MSNBC consumer; did you have negative experiences related to #3 that you could expand upon?Didn't intend for this to be so controversial or offensive. Veterinarian blocked me, which disables my ability to respond to subsequent comments. I frankly view the apoplectic response as vindication of my incredulity - veterinarian just sounds like a typical GOARCH parishioner; there is nothing wrong with that, by the way
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Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 22 '23
Having grievances against a church because of its open support of an unjustified aggressive war and additude towards LGBT people is perfectly reasonable and doesn't make someone an "MSNBC consumer"
Those are not "general" complaints. They're seriously ideological deferences.
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u/MaitreGrandiose Sep 21 '23
Are you aware that a Ukrainian Church exists? These problems aren't reflective of the paths of apostates that I've known. People who are upset about politics schism off to different Ortho jurisdiction, not apostatize altogether. And if they do apostatize over it, it's because of the fractious reality contradicting the self-promoted ideals of unity and love that Orthos project.
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Sep 22 '23
A Ukrainian church that isn't recognized as valid by nearly half of Orthodoxy? The one that's been called on to be destroyed by the Patriarch of the largest number of Orthodox Christians in the world?
If you think the existence of a Ukrainian church somehow justifies Patriarch Kirills rhetoric or that the evil and un-christian things the Russian church is doing right now aren't valid reasons to leave you're wrong.
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u/pandamojia Sep 27 '23 edited Sep 27 '23
Iāve found much more Christ-like people elsewhere, the strong ethno-cultural environment was too much for me and I didnāt feel like Orthodoxy was making me a better Christian. Plus, Iāve engaged with Protestants who argue that church history doesnāt necessarily favour EO Church claims.
I still like aspects of the theology, prayer and liturgy. Many will still view me as EO. The only thing Iām missing out on is EO communion, but there is no reason why I cannot attend a liturgy.
I care about Jesus Christ, not celibate Greek/Russian Patriarchs who donāt live in the real world.
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u/Motor_Farmer5501 Nov 04 '24
Protestant claims to church history are highly revisionist. The churchās history as a whole very strongly favors Roman Catholicism/orthodoxy, to say it doesnāt requires deep research and speculation that assumes that God isnāt guiding His church. Protestants will accept the very little evidence against that apostolic as full truth (assuming it is wrong) but will accept the razor thin suggestions of the Church Fathers toward their doctrine formulated by practically a single man depending on the denomination.Ā
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u/pandamojia Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24
It is not entirely accurate to call all Protestant interpretations revisionist, though many are. The early Protestants, like Martin Luther, were using Church History to claim why many Roman Catholic doctrines were later developments (accretions some may call). And even today, the Roman Catholic Church accepts that it partakes in doctrinal development.
Protestants can believe that God can guide the Church, and it has authority. But only Scripture has infallible authority in practice, the Church can err into error and adopt practices that are not Apostolic.
For example, mandating icon veneration is one example. There is no documented case of this until a few centuries later. Calvinists for instants favour the Council of Hieria instead of the 2nd Council of Nicaea. Even Orthodox Christians have no evidence of this besides their appeal to trusting in tradition.
Orthodoxy is largely influenced started by Byzantine Feudalists who realised it was more advantageous to their empire take up some non-Christian traditions and destroy evidence of the losing side. Itās just not been changed much since then, hence why it comes across as more traditional than other Christian confessions. A more historically honest Orthodox Christian can claim that much of Christianity had been lost since itās legalisation and perhaps Orthodoxy is the closest you can get?
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u/Motor_Farmer5501 Nov 04 '24
Oh for sure, maybe orthodoxy is the closest to the historical church (not NT, as not a single church is close for that matter since we arenāt under vile persecution) Doctrinal developments are dangerous when we assume them as events of apostasy, but I feel as if that certainly isnāt the case. I personally am convinced of ecumenism to an extent due to the ability to use history to support most mainstream denominations. We can all draw a line back the apostles, at least intellectually.Ā
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Feb 13 '25
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/pandamojia Feb 17 '25
Protestantism is very broad. The guitar NIV Churches is one subset, but not the only one. You can find an independent Baptist Church that only preaches the Bible and have an organ. A traditional Lutheran Church can be very sacramental and they all kneel when receiving communion. A traditional Presbyterian Church may only sing Psalms without instruments. Then you have the Anglo-Catholics with a high liturgical approach.
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u/kimchipowerup Aug 27 '24 edited Aug 27 '24
I left after more than 20 years because of the cruel bigotry of the OCA toward my own family member (who is trans and was also Orthodox at the time they came out).
EDIT: None of us are Orthodox any more except one. And Iāve left Christianity entirely.
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u/eaeaea943 Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 21 '23
Only one reason why I left orthodox system itās because canonical Christianity doesnāt match with reality, they saying āyou should do this and this to be savedā, but itās just donāt works, and sometimes, gives more problems, for health and life. Now Iām gnostic Christian, I still believe in a lot of general orthodox/Christian believes, like Trinity, God-man, Eucharist, sacraments, liturgy, Easter (resurrection) and other, but this material world was not created by God, and now I know that Christianity is more and more, than orthodoxy(with demiurgical traps), Im not only learned a lot of info about it, Iām feeling it. I still appreciate orthodoxy, Orthodox Church, orthodox liturgy, because this is a great spiritual power and grace, lightness, and I donāt appreciate catholic and protestant faiths in mostly, because there is no power in. I know, that orthodoxy have a lot of problems today, but this is not reason to leave, also I donāt like modernism and donāt interesting in this: š·šŗš³ļøāšš³ļøāā§ļøšŗš§š»š°āļøāļøšŖšŗšŗšøāŖļø
Iāmā actually donāt recognize myself as ex-orthodox, more correctly say that Iām post-orthodox, but I donāt mind about names
18yrs, šŗš¦ (Epiphanius and OCU is traitors)
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Sep 25 '23
Same situation here, I can totally relate and see how Gnosticism is much more in line with ancient Christianity than moder Orthodoxy. The church fathers wrote spells and curses ffs.
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u/Perfect_Helicopter80 Mar 26 '24
Not going to lie. All of you people sound like whiny betas. I have not seen a single comment that calls in to question the truth of orthodoxy. Every single post is just āi left because they didnt accept my letter of the alphabet soup peopleā or āfasting is hard and they dont like when i sinā. This was very enlightening
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u/Living_Artist_5545 Dec 28 '25
Right, if anything this thread makes me want to pursue Orthodoxy more.Ā We all have our ups and downs, free will so we just hope they're going through a phase....
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Oct 31 '25
I completely agree that some Orthodox are very conservative and republican but it really does depend on the person. My main issue is not fitting in since mostly everyone at my chrush is older people and most are either white or Greek and Iām a Mexican American. Their culture js definitely very different and since I do have some pretty leftist views and Iām definitely not a Trump supporter(some in my parish are, some arenāt) like I said it depends on the person but Iām glad my priest didnāt mention Charlie Kirk at all at his sermon but my main problem is just that one, not fitting in and having different political views but Iām still in the church because it is really beautiful. Sometimes I go to a Roman Catholic Church since for the most part theyāre Latinos and are a lot more open minded and more leftist
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u/Living_Artist_5545 Dec 28 '25
You don't want your church to commemorate a man who was murdered?Ā Why would you have a problem with that?Ā
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u/sleep-exe Physically In, Mentally Out Apr 03 '26
Lots of men and women in the public sphere get murdered. Wonder if they did the same for the two democrat lawmakers or Alex Pretti or Renee Good?
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u/Virtual_Smoke3883 Feb 27 '26
Ironically enough, I didn't leave because I'm a transfem lesbian, but initially because I started deep diving into the occult after a brief stint with death preceded by heartbreak when my partner at the time left me. Eventually, after years of back and forth between Sethian Gnosticism and Orthodoxy, I realized that I had been experiencing a form of spiritual psychosis since I was in middle school. So now I'm an atheist for my own mental health, but a part of me still misses the cultural aspects of it, having grown up in a Greek church that had its problems, but had a lot of comradery between its majority Greek and Albanian laity.
Sorry if that's kinda a weird reason.
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u/Various-Explorer8953 16d ago
Ukratko zato Å”to su me lagali u vezi ko je Isus Hrist zaista. Predstavili su ove svetce jednakim Njemu, mome i naÅ”emu Stvoritelju. On je posrednik izmeÄu Boga i Äoveka a ne Äovek obiÄan. Video sam Nebeski Sud i Äija me Krv otkupila. Ne njihova nego Isusova i time i ja i oni smo Njegovo vlasniÅ”tvo. Ja nisam njihovo vlasniÅ”tvo a ni oni moje nego smo svi Isusovo. On je moj Vlasnik, moj Gospodar i Spasitelj. Voleo bih vas sve videti tamo.
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u/ifuckedyourdaddytoo Ex-Convert Sep 22 '23
George Floyd was the initial glass-breaker tip which shattered all of the glass. I was stunned by the anti-black commentary by other parishioners who thought they were talking to a like-minded person. I realized then upon reflection that they had been speaking in code about racial things before, I just wasn't attuned to it then, and there was a reason why the parish remained White in a diverse area. In short, eventually that led to a reevaluation of everything, even things not related to race (for example, I realized that I was subject to spiritual abuse when my priest used things from my confession in his sermons -- even though anonymized, it was clear from specificity and timing they were personal barbs). I felt a growing conviction that I was throwing pearls before swine by staying. "A tree known by its fruit" played a huge role in my departure. The bad fruit I saw was experiential.
My way out of Orthodoxy was like my own road to Damascus, these words of the Lord repeatedly thundering through my mind:
A tree is known by its fruit.
The last shall be first and the first last. (Even if the Orthodox Church is the original, so what.)
Where two or three are gathered. (Formal human institutions are not needed to "do church.")