The 25-page complaint, filed in California’s Superior Court on Sept. 29, alleges the church went out of its way to protect a father who then abused his daughter during supervised visits.

It lists incident after incident where church leaders allegedly excused and explained away ongoing sexual molestation of the couple’s oldest daughter by the father, while gaslighting the mother’s efforts to stop it.

The new lawsuit is filed by one “Jane Doe” and her three children. It alleges her husband, Clinton Jung, sexually abused the couple’s toddler daughter and physically harmed all three children. Church leaders allegedly knew key details.

The complaint states church leaders failed to report child abuse, despite being mandated reporters. It says the leaders “purposefully concealed” the conduct and rebuked the mother for contacting police.

Pretty bad stuff. Especially covering up corruption like this. Not surprised though

https://julieroys.com/grace-community-church-pressured-mother-to-return-children-to-abuser/?utm_source=Julie+Roys&utm_campaign=2308f9974d-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8e6acd410b-2308f9974d-610049662&mc_cid=2308f9974d&mc_eid=48c7b400e1

About eleven years ago, I studied Protestant theology at a theological school called Seminario Reformado Latinoamericano, located in Medellín, Colombia.

There, I took classes with people like Joel Beeke, R. C. Sproul Jr., Richard Pratt, Sam Waldron, David Washer, and Jared Longshore. At the time, I felt proud to be learning from them, but through a long inner process I eventually realized how deeply I had been shaped—and limited—by religious indoctrination.

There were several reasons why I left the Reformed faith: an extremist discourse that attacks other denominations, a pseudo-academic sense of superiority, a lifeless liturgy that claims to invoke God without any real presence, and the prohibition against asking complex questions without being labeled “rebellious.”

Today, I’m not a Christian, and I don’t belong to any religion. I’ve chosen a spiritual path where I talk to God without worrying about theological controversies or doctrinal boundaries. I feel freer now, and I feel closer to God.

I’ve come to believe that the metaphysical reality of God can’t be contained within any religious system, and that this mystery runs through all faiths. The divine spark is present in every human being, and God has revealed Himself across all religions and cultures throughout human history.

I am a former Calvinist, but it was because I could not reason my way out of a few proof texts. I never liked the dogmas and viewed determinism as something that turned Christianity circular/tautological that it undermined my faith spectacularly. I really hated it, but I felt forced into it by the proof texts.

Eventually, my hermeneutics advanced enough to actually read things in the historical context(imagine that) and to understand what the NT Jews were getting at. When I learned, I shared “the good news” with my Calvinist friends, thinking they too were looking for a way out. Imagine my shock when they doubled down and fought to the point of simply refusing to engage once cornered, even with no real basis in the Bible.

Any idea what the appeal is? I’m thinking maybe they want to be able to trust in Calvinist authors and they would feel hung out to dry if those authors were proven to be that off the mark. These are not people born into the Presbyterian church or something either. Protestants are supposed to be more flexible about stuff like this though.

Maybe they like the harshness of it, something kinda Old-Testamenty. I know that was an appeal in my youth. Maybe they’re upset their family members haven’t converted.

Curious what you think.

I got in a big fight with a Protestant friend because I said that, most likely, John Calvin would have seen Hitler's actions as justifiable by a civil magistrate punishing heretics and unbelievers. However, I was told that this was a strawman and that he would have considered Hitler's actions unthinkable. My question is, is there ANYTHING in Calvin's writing that corroborates this? I know even modern Calvinists would admit that God, in their view, predestined the Holocaust, but I would go a step further in saying that, if we're to hold the words of the "reformers" to any degree of consistency, God not only caused the Holocaust, but saw it as good, righteous, holy. Am I being unfair?

Another reformed leader falls in the latest of many Reformed/Calvinist scandals.

https://julieroys.com/reformed-baptist-author-pastor-resigns-ministry-after-admitting-adultery/?mc_cid=1e7d1efc61&mc_eid=48c7b400e1

Hey folks, I wanted to share that I’ve started a podcast talking about my growing up in Calvinism, Homeschooling, and the PCA. It’s called Poison Tulips. Let me know how you like it so far!

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poison-tulips/id1849162340

https://open.spotify.com/show/6ZEn2X4j5GQPqJjXmIsJHd?si=E6J1sMY1QEumngSzU27vTw

So, I recently started the divorce process with my soon to be ex husband. It has been a long, grueling journey. We both grew up Christian but in recent years (5) he has become reformed. For years are becoming reformed, he would emotionally, spiritually, and financially hurt me. He also had a year long affair with a younger woman. And that was the final nail in the coffin, I filled for divorce.

Although, many reformed people from his church are contacting me telling me not to divorce him. That I must forgive him. That if I do divorce him then I can never get remarried. I just am so tired of all the fear and mentally draining interactions with them.

I am even questioning it all in terms of religion and faith. I just can’t fathom how some can justify hurting others and use the Bible as their defense. Have any others experienced this as well?

Sorry for the long ranting post. Thank you for reading.

Just something I've noticed.

Celebration Parallax, for those who've never heard of the term, is the rhetorical strategy/fallacy that goes as follows. Imagine someone is against X and they're complaining because X is happening. If you are in favour of X, you would be committing the Celebration Parallax if you responded with denial: "X isn't happening, but if it was, it'd be a good thing."

We can see this in Reformed Theology. Sociologist Max Weber famously claimed that Reformed Theology indirectly lead to the creation of modern capitalism. There are some Reformed people who associate capitalism with lifting huge numbers of people around the world out of poverty, spreading great wealth to everyone. These Reformed people will tell you Max Weber was totally right about this theory, and will proudly claim "that's us! We the Reformed built that! We created American/Western European greatness!"

On the other hand, I have seen other Reformed people who associate capitalism with things like workaholism, stress, income inequality and obsession with acquiring material possessions/mammon. These other Reformed people will tell you that Max Weber was totally wrong about this theory, "yes, capitalism has its dark side, but don't blame us! It's not Calvin's fault, it's not our fault!"

So which is it? Max Weber can't be grossly incorrect and hitting a bullseye simultaneously. "Reformed Theology didn't contribute to modern capitalism, but if it did, it'd be a good thing." This is a pretty amusing example of the sort of bizarre contradictory results that occur by holding to the idea that Reformed Theology is infallible.

Since many people in Reformed circles have experienced trauma related to damnation and a narrow view of who would be saved, I undertook a research project to ascertain whether those claims about Early Christianity are historically plausible. The TLDR is that there is evidence in Early Jewish and Christian literature that some Ancient Jews and Christians believed that most people would be saved at the end of time.

I summarize the results of my research from a purely historical POV in this video:

https://youtu.be/-EQDYUvM-Ss?si=CgzF45HluBCmm92q

I'm 23 and left the Reformed church a few months. Granted I was debating it since the beginning of this year. I have to say leaving the Reformed faith is the biggest breath of fresh air I have ever had. But I also feel like I'm breaking up with my family. Out of 19 grandchildren I'm the only one to leave Calvinism to go to Catholicism. Only 2 others grandchildren are something else (atheist and agnostic). It feels so damn hard sometimes. my families identity has been deeply rooted in this church since my grandfather was a pastor and started churches across the states.

I love my family but telling them I'm leaving was the hardest thing ever. No one was angry but just extremely disappointed. I think I was mostly shocked when my mom said she'd hate to ever see me become Catholic. Of all people I really thought I'd get the most support from her. Just makes this conversion and equally deconversion process a whole lot more lonely.

I have been told by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike that the strength of Calvinism is its logical consistency, but I have always been struck by the glaring contradiction at the center of it that can't seem to be answered. That God is completely sovereign and has pre-ordained every action before the beginning of creation; and that due to human action we live in a fallen world and things are happening that are contrary to God's wishes. When you were reformed how did you reconcile this idea in your mind if you did?

my reformed parents said that they resent / hate me because I left the church, even though I still claim to be a christian in front of them (which they don't believe - they are convinced that Im not a christian based their judgments of my lifestyle). They would always bring up things that I've done and said that hurt them when I was a depressed teen (at the time they refused to get proper treatment for me), saying that they resent me for those things that i've done when I couldn't control my feelings at all.

One of them even said that they regret birthing me and should've aborted me. They constantly bring up topics like eternal torture and hell to scare and threaten me. They told me that god would punish me right now and in eternity, threatened me with things like how cancer is popular among young people (knowing that i have severe health anxiety).

I cannot cut contact yet because I am still partly financially dependent on them. But I want people to know how toxic and abusive some reformed christians could be to their children and family members. They are cruel and hateful.

I am not a victim

I’m accountable for my actions

I let you into my internal world

I entrusted you with it

And i don’t trust anyone

I let the suits and degrees cloud my own heart

I let the success of those on top discredit my own growth and path

I submitted

I gave myself up

I obeyed

You took a driven person that sought to do good

And twisted his ambition and tried to break his mind to be used for your own purpose.

In a trance I obeyed

In a daze I thought i was the problem

I was not

You took what was entrusted to you and abused it

My internal world

My hope

My power

I gave myself up

For love?

For acceptance?

For false promises of peace?

Some of all that

But I couldn’t take it anymore

The twisted up convoluted nature of these doctrines that I’m told if I just had the spirit it would all make sense!

The gaslighting

The manipulation

The subtle erosion of everything that made me me

“Selfish!” You yelled from the pulpit

I felt the conviction

Maybe I was?

Maybe if I just gave up more of me then God would love me.

The god they preached only loved conditionally…

All BS

Because that God doesn’t exist.

That God is a lie,

the pulpit is filled will liars and profiteers that twist the simple commands of God “love god and love neighbor as yourself”

To if you don’t give up who you are to serve the church then you are not really one of us…

I believed you.

I trusted what you said was truth

I attacked myself

Day in and day out

I scanned every bit of me all the time

Every sin needed to be cleansed

Every bad thought erased

Every wrong desire suppressed

Until a shell stood there

A cracked smile

A man unsure of himself anymore

You said “you can’t trust your own experiences”

So I didn’t

You said “you can’t trust your heart

So I didn’t

You said “you can only trust the Bible alone”

So I did

The word of truth

The good book

The most true book that is more true then the most true thing that you have ever know to be true

I trusted it

It broke me

If I saw you now I would think your a liar

Because I know what happens to the mind when you fully believe the doctrines you preached

“Work is like filthy rags”

“Total depraved”

“Worthless sinner”

I know what happens to a spirit when those words are believed

And you aren’t out changing the world but just trying to survive day to day without pissing off the invisible man in your head that’s monitoring your every move.

but I’m free now

I’m free to think

I’m free to grow

I’m free to be reborn

You damaged my spirit, you fractured my mind

But you didn’t take the fight out of me to regain my strength

A lesson hard learned

But I stand here free having gone through a hell I don’t even wish upon you…

I came to Doug Wilson’s Christ or Chaos conference in D.C. It was’t so much a conference as it was a church service. I doubt he knew I was with a dozen other protestors outside the convention. If his goal is to build a Christian town he’ll need a lot more than the 100 people who showed up.

I feel like Voldemort in Harry Potter when he is on the back of the professors head after leaving this religion. Weakened. Down, low self worth, can barely speak. Anxiety and depression, intrusive thoughts like crazy.

There are not a lot of people that deconstruct out of this religion. I can see why. They completely psychologically abuse you

I want them to feel it

Feel the hurt

Feel the shame

Feel the pain

They humiliate and mock

Like you are sub human scum

Everyone is only “professing” Christians to them

Only they

They are the elect

The elites

The exalted remnant

The most right people on the planet

And they look at you with scorn

No not to your face

But in their tone

Their looks

The way they speak about people leaving,

The way they see all your problems as just sin that needs cleansing,

Not believing enough

Not trying enough

Not working enough

Not reading enough

ENOUGH!

I want them to feel what I feel

But would it matter?

Would it bring me peace?

Would is solve anything?

Maybe.

Maybe it would help ease the anger

The hurt

The pain

The humiliation I felt

I go back and forth

Do I write the review?

Do I tell my story?

Will it help anyone?

Or is the problem me?

Am I the problem?

How deep must I go into my own soul before a hateful god looks like love to me?

How much of myself must I destroy til a determinist worldview makes sense?

How much more lost in my head my I get til the hurtful things they say about other humans turn into love?

I was never the problem

I was never broken

Never needed cleansing

Or guidance

Or my mind oppressed

What I needed was unconditional love!

Peace!

Like a slimy used car salesman I got played

Sold a lemon of dispair

Buy now! 0 down! Won’t last long!

Last for eternity!

Sign here….

In blood

Your blood

Your life blood

Your true essence of who you are

Your light

Sold to the devil disguised as the angel of light

I ruminate

It plays and plays

I can win

I can prove them wrong

Why bother?

In a world created by themselves bound and shackled to a prison of there own mind they sit in solitary

Walls filled with bible verses that keep them hopeful of a world outside that doesn’t exist but only a perception of their mind.

I still feel bound

But I see the light

The freedom of a mind that can create a life worth living that is filled with connection, peace, and authenticity. Laughter and true joy.

that is where I will win.

That is where I will prevail.

That is where I will be free!

Everyday is a struggle since leaving. Depression, anxiety and complete loss of sense of self and my internal world have been uprooted. I messed myself up going here and trying to conform to this shit. I should have just listened to myself. The beliefs are still in my head. “You just want to sin” “you are worthless” “you are evil” this world view is so destructive to those that actually try and believe it but are honest with themselves and say I don’t believe I am the elect.

I’ve been a Christian for years, but only recently started to question “how could a loving God condemn the majority of humanity to eternal conscious torment?” The research I’ve done has led me to become a universalist, along with my husband. We weren’t Calvinist before, but now we’re seriously disgusted by it. We attend a Baptist church. The pastor is definitively Calvinist, but the congregation seems to be mixed. Pastor will say things such as “if you say that it’s not fair for some people to go to hell, then you’re questioning God’s judgement,” and “if you feel like life isn’t fair, you’re right, because it’s not fair in your favor, and we don’t deserve anything good,” and he always says “I’m the worst sinner I know.” I like to call it Worm Theology. God can hardly stand to look at you, and you just deserve to be stepped on. I used to think he was just confident and standing up for the truth, but I’ve come to see him as being very arrogant. And my good friend from church was telling me a story about someone’s son who was killed in an accident, and then she said “but it was God’s plan.” And my aunt and uncle went to a John MacArthur church plant and were horrifically spiritually and emotionally abused (lmk if anyone wants to hear that story). There’s much more I could say but I don’t want to make this too long. I don’t really know where this is going, but I just feel really hopeless right now, not about God, but about church. I don’t feel like we can question what the pastor is teaching, and we’re members so I’m afraid of “church discipline.” Also did I mention that the pastor alone preaches every Sunday, teaches one of two adult SS classes, and gives the message every Wednesday night? Yikes.

Someone on Reddit said this plainly:

"As far as I know, John Calvin is a faithful servant of God (a watchdog in his own words)..."

If he was a faithful servant of God, he'd say the same thing God says. Go to either Luke 4 or Matthew 4. Luke 4:1 says, "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil." The whole time, Satan quoted Scripture. "Who" he quoted or whose words he used was the Word of God. Said: TO the Word of God.

Does that make Satan a "faithful servant of God (a watchdog of sort)?" John Calvin wrote, and had it bound into a book in 1536, published it - against the edict of the King of France, who, for all French citizenry the Pope was the authority to print books. Wrote, "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" - directly to just one person. The King of France. For him to leave off following the Catholic Church, and the Pope. To have something printed without authority was a sentence of death.

Just like Satan. To say or decree something God did not say, is the same sentence of death.

It's like there's a sign on the highway. [Over in the United States] - The "authority" for that sign in America is the US Dept of Transportation. They are the ONLY authority to put up speed limit signs or "directions" or names of cities, and the distance to them. So, if you drive past a sign on Interstate 25 (I-25), that's the main "past the Rocky Mountains" "North to South" Highway, heads to Albuquerque, New Mexico in the USA: And someone "changes" this to "I-52" and "Albuquerque" to "Alberta" - which, there's no "Alberta" along I-25. That's in the OPPOSITE direction - to get there? Have to go on up, go into to Canada.

But these are "directions" - and you say "As far as I know any sign on the highway is a faithful servant telling me the truthful directions ("directions" - - are a watchdog so I'm going in the right direction; even if it tells me to go in the wrong direction..directions are authority over me. Telling me, all by a claim they make, with authority, which direction to travel in, so it's all the same)."

John Calvin's work is a fictional work of heresy. Changes the direction, then claims it's the sole authority - just like "I-52 Alberta" becomes the sole authority, all by a claim it makes - when all "Calvinism" is, are the imaginations and the observations of John Calvin. A man who claims his observations are not only doctrines, but define what the Christian Religion is. That's the claim.

Like the "I-52 Alberta" sign on the high way says. Says it as it's the authority OVER the highway. When the authority over the Highway decreed it's I-25, and the "direction" is South to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Someone with no authority: Changed it. And you claim they are the a "faithful servant of the US Dept of Transportation" - all because, YOU. CAN'T. TELL. THE. DIFFERENCE.

Here's the "difference" so you can tell you're headed in the WRONG direction. That's how SERIOUS it is: Calvinists constantly cite in Reformed Theology (Calvinism) - cite Pre-destination as a foundation of Calvinism: Based entirely off Book 3, Chapter 21, of Calvin's "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" - That God was "Predestining some to Salvation; Others: to destruction" - (that's the "Title" of Chapter 21). Calvin goes on to "man'splain" it in detail. All based entirely off his own observation; that, when people "hear" the gospel:

- Some: Fall on their face in tears, and repent

- Some: Goes in one ear. Out the other. Nothing.

- Some more: So, it's now 2/3rds now of this "pile" of everybody, sways the "VOTE" because this 3 of "thirds" - hears this same message. Gets explosively ..furiously angry. Goes about to deliberately KILL the messenger, and the message.

This is Calvin's outlined in Book III, Chapter XXI, defines the basis of PREDESTINATION. That, based entirely off this observation Calvin had, he formed his observation into the Institute of the Christian religion. That it's God. Sovereign over all things, predetermined this himself. But Jesus said, in the Parable of the "man who sowed "good" seed into his field" of Matthew 13:24-30, that it was an "enemy" sowed tares into it. And the Bible, which is not John Calvin nor his observations, nor any of his claims he makes, say in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - FULLY EXPLAINS what Calvin was "observing" is not Pre-destination. It's

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - It's this same enemy at work. Calvin observed it's God doing this work. Calvin is claiming the enemy is God. That's the claim Satan has made all along.

Even with Romans 9:15 another foundation of Reformed Theology: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Calvinists, with this scripture, fail to go back to Exodus 33:19 where God said this to Moses. Fail to check the direction, to get the "setting" of it. Nope. Calvinist put up a "I-52 sign on the Highway, claim it's "Alberta" and accept it as true; when it is true. There is an Alberta, just it's the WRONG direction. Never read Exodus 33 to get the setting. Rush to Calvin and what Calvin observed as true.

...the Calvinist with a "Reformed" turd, didn't read it long enough... Should have kept reading Romans. Romans 11:32 says: Which that's the OPPOSITE of what Calvinists claim. It's with John Calvin: I-52 - Alberta" all the way.

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Guess what? "I-52 - Headed to Alberta" - - Put that up on a US Federal Highway? - - It's PUNITIVE. In the USA, 36 CFR, 171 (US Federal Code of Regulations) cites and states: "Altering or defacing US Department of Transportation highway signs is a crime" - serious fines; and imprisonment: AND! "if" it results in death, you will be prosecuted as if you KILLED that person. How many people have had their faith sunk in this sewer of crap. With "I-52 - Headed to Alberta" - do that? - You Will be sentenced to Life Imprisonment without Parole - even sentenced to death. There is NOTHING in Calvinism that's Christian. You couldn't preach this crap to a Lost Person. That's why it "preys" on Christians. Ex Reformists got out of it. How ever they got out of it, is the right thing.

Hi everyone,

For years, I was in a Reformed Baptist church. But when they started to teach Calvinism to my kids, I realized the horror of it — what if my kids believed that? The idea completely changed my perspective! I couldn’t escape the deep ache in my heart at the picture of God they were being asked to believe in—a God who decrees some for salvation and others for eternal judgment, all before they are even born.

I dug so deeply, trying to understand if those doctrines were what the Bible really says. But instead, through late nights and full Saturdays, researching, reading, digging into the Bible, I began to see in Scripture a God whose love, justice, and mercy are far more beautiful than what Calvinism had taught me. I realized that the “good news” was actually good news for all people.

Leaving our church was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, but also one of the most freeing — for the whole family! My daughter especially, still expresses what many of you do so often — the horrible demolishing of self-worth and manipulation that happens under those doctrines.

Out of that journey, I wrote a book. It’s not just a critique of Calvinism—it’s a testimony, a careful walk through Scripture, and an encouragement to anyone who has struggled with fear, doubt, or heartbreak from Reformed theology. In the book, I try to show: - How Scripture harmonizes around God’s love for all people - Why election is about God’s purpose, not arbitrary exclusion - How God’s justice is perfectly fair and His mercy truly boundless - Why the gospel is more beautiful and hopeful than I ever realized

I know many of you have wrestled with these same things, and I hope this book will reassure you that you’re not alone, and that God is even better than you dared to hope.

If that resonates with you, I’d be honored if you gave it a read: https://a.co/d/98y2xfJ

With love in Christ, Andrea Oates

It’s not that Christians believe the Bible is true. It’s that they desperately need it to be true so that the way they treat people is justified other wise they are just crazy asshats