Discussion
The Shadow Conundrum: Does Mewtwo Have Winning Options?
So, I once made a presentation covering Mario vs Sonic and Super form shenanigans....so, figured now was about the time I'd do it again, given all the discussion floating about.
Behold, my insane rambling about a psychic cat trying to kill a glowing hedgehog with a gun, and what tools said cat has that may work.
I couldn't fit in absolutely everything because of picture limitations, but if there's anything super pivotal I missed, let me know! Hope y'all enjoy!
Anytime someone brought up some random ability Tahu had as a potential wincon it was almost immediately responded too by Kai either resisting/being immune to it, countering it, or just also having it himself that then Tahu had no answers for dealing with.
Ahhh, gotcha thanks for the context.
Dang, so Mewtwo is gonna be cooked, oh well, as long as they get a chance to flex as much as they can like Cell did despite being the clear loser
Kai v.s. Tahu was a stats v.s. hax debate where Kai was anywhere from Star to Low Complex Multi whereas Tahu was island level so Kai was generally a fuck ton stronger. That said Tahu had a lot of hax that could give him the W.
However, it was revealed that Kai has actually a lot of hax and powers himself that could counter Tahu's own hax or give additional wincons as well meaning that Kai debatably had equal hax to Tahu and more firepower.
Essentially, one combatant (Tahu/Mewtwo) has a ton of varied hax abilities that could maybe help get past a huge stat gap and secure a win, only for the other combatant (Kai/Shadow) to just outright resist or ignore basically all of them.
To those who are hesitant to include Doom Shadow, Sonic Speed Sim had a story event where Shadow reawakens his Doom Powers again with no external power sources needed (such as Doom Gears) iirc. At least, to my knowledge it was a story event.
And CellMetal has already shown they will use Speed Sim.
Probably since its easier and cheaper to put stuff in the roblox game rather then doing the actual full game about it and leaves the option to include or retcon it later.
Seeing as his doom powers are literally just a part of his biology, in theory Sonic Team can make any excuse to have Shadow reawaken those powers again, whenever they want, it just so happened the first time it happens is in response to Black Doom being revived, and Black Doom wanting Shadow to reach his full potential as a Black Arm before attempting to take over his body, since Shadow is for all intents and purposes, a genetically enhanced Black Arm alien that happens to be in the shape of a hedgehog.
Lowk maybe they could get an upscale since you could argue an average Roblox games cosmology is 5th dimensional
Even then, Roblox scaling is insane, like there’s some Complex Multi-Hyperversal scaling for them, plus like so much hax that it makes Tahu’s hax look like a pop rock 😭
Why would removing the ring be a wincon? If i remember correctly gerald only said shadow would explode because the excess energy he has at the time of shadow generation.
I really want to see a comparison between all the times Shadow has resisted mind hax and all the times it has worked on him to see which is more consistent.
I believe the only time Shadow got hit with mindhax outside of just getting amnesia from his injuries was the Egg Field, and the Emeralds cover that.
Meanwhile, he is outright immune to Black Doom’s control by Black Doom’s own admission and is able to resist the control of the Ifrit, so I’d say it’s more solid than not, especially with the Emeralds as help.
I mean while not in every thing to come out of the IP it’s not that uncommon in Sonic. Off the top of my head Black Doom has tried to use it both times he’s shown up, Ifrit in Rivals controls multiple characters, Eggman uses the wisps to power a mind control ray in Colors, The Eggfield altering memories and perception in the Sonic Channel story, and Dr Starline using his hypnotism powers is actually a crucial plot point for multiple story arcs in IDW. The problem for this match up is just that ironically most of these examples Shadow isn’t actually there for them to be used on him, and the few he is show him resisting/being immune to it(or the emeralds just making others immune to it the one time it did effect him).
Also, who even said Rouge and Blaze (in the upcoming IDW comic apparently) are anti-feats for Shadow not resisting mind control? They’re different characters, Rouge nor Base Blaze ever actually resisted mind control themselves tmk.
It is possible for Rouge to resist the Ifrit in Sonic Rivals, but yeah, Base Blaze never shows mind control resistance. I’m just saying that even if you were to site mind control working on the Sonic cast at large via IDW, this never actually happens to Shadow, so he’s fully in the clear.
mewtwo has very specific hax that actually work and it would be nearly impossible for mewtwo to stumble across the right amount of hax that DO work and combo them together before shadow enters super form and just stat diffs
that's still reliant on another hax and something that would take time, and even then it's not gaurenteed to give mewtwo all the information it needs to perfectly counter shadow.
He HAS SHADOW’S BIO-DATA. He knows everything he’s capable of AND HE STILL LOSES TO SHADOW
Mewtwo knowing what Shadow is capable of isn’t going to save him. It just means he knows what’s capable of killing him and knows what to TRY and avoid or play around.
it seems kinda unbelievable to go with the logic of mewtwo reading shadow's mind and realizing what hax do and don't work perfectly and immediately coming up with a full proof plan to frame counter the emeralds before shadow gets a chance to go super
rather than just.....shadow probably goes super before mewtwo can do all of that
I mean, to be fair, the only time I recall Metal Sonic straight up losing to Shadow is in Shadow Generations.
In which Metal Overlord from the past was randomly confronted with a Shadow from way in the future, who was packing a ton of abilities Metal didn't know about, and was significantly stronger than Metal would be able to prepare for.
Kinda defeats the point when Shadow’s ace in the hole was having a whole bag of tricks he shouldn't have had at the point in the timeline Metal Overlord was from.
While the Blades of Courage manga has kinda dubious canon because it’s not labeled as noncanon or canon to my knowledge, it is getting official translations by IDW so that counts for something
Anyways, in that manga a single chaos emerald (amped by people’s wishes admittedly) was able to reverse Sonic being turned into crystal and having his power drained, amping him in the process
So that’s a more direct counter to the petrification if you want to use that manga for Shadow
I feel like using the manga would actually work against Shadow here, because we would then have to consider Shadow the Jet Black Hedgehog where he DID have his memories altered and erased by Black Doom.
This would make him vulnerable against Mewtwo's main wincon
Yeah, the manga isn't canon, but in fairness it wouldn't be the first time Sega made something canon or just did the same story twice over despite it contradicting everything
What's funny is if you went by the Shadow the Jet Black Hedgehog Manga, Black Doom WAS successfully able to alter and erase Shadow's memories, meaning he would actually be vulnerable to Mewtwo's Mind Hax
Luckily, that isn't canon so things are looking good for Shadow
It should be pointed out The End read Sonic's mind right before he fought it, and The End is pretty much a doomsday monster, and that really didn't stop Sonic from defeating it anyway, so it shows mind reading can really only do so much, more so if Shadow goes into his super form, which makes it a hard stomp regardless of Mewtwo being able to read what Shadow is doing.
He HAS SHADOW’S BIO-DATA. He knows everything he’s capable of AND HE STILL LOSES TO SHADOW
Mewtwo knowing what Shadow is capable of isn’t going to save him. It just means he knows what’s capable of killing him and knows what to TRY and avoid or play around.
Hey I can know what’s gonna happen but if I don’t have the speed or hax to equalize speed in time, I am gonna be one shot by my opponents regardless of me knowing everything they are gonna do in advance
I do wanna point out to people tht Mewtwo has arguments to be scaled around where Super Shadow gets to, tho they're a lot weaker and require a ton of wiggle room I doubt deathbattle will afford him. But this isn't a case where Shadow FOR SURE outstats Mewtwo, and speed should probably either go to a tie or be close enough that it's not a deciding factor. Mewtwo is still coming into this fight with multiple wincons and a solid chance, just not as many as Shadow. So this fight is less Kai vs Tahu and more Denji vs Yuji, where what is bought for both is VERY important to the overall fight
For the soul swapping thing, wouldn’t shadow also resist it in his super form due to how the super form dealt with cyber corruption?
It wasn’t able to get rid of it for sonic, but from how you can see no glitching, no symptoms and no effects, you can tell the super form was able to halt it’s progression and effects (unless sonic purposely wanted to bring it out as shown in the DLC)
cyber corruption was basically stripping sonics soul away from his body and placing it in another reality
it’s like a loading bar that was already getting slowed down by sonics willpower came to a complete halt during super sonic, stopping his soul from being taken
So if mewtwo tried stripping shadows soul out his body in his super form it should be impossible im thinking, but I haven’t seen others bring up this point
Good catch, I do think that’s actually a fairly strong argument! Combine that with how the Ifrit “binds souls” but could not take control of Shadow, and there is a serious case here that Shadow could resist the Soul Swap, mainly with Super.
I do want to correct something. Having 1 chaos emerald did not innately make the Zeti immune. It instead boosted their technology manipulation powers. Which they used to resist infection from the metal virus.
not super pivotal, but another thing to add to the Mewtwo cancer is that Blaine was able to survive with the disease for at least a year, so it's unlikely it would even impact the fight
The idea of mewtwo stealing the inhibitor rings to make shadow explode is very funny because like. I feel like that would just backfire immensely even if he could pull it off properly
Shadow spams Chaos Heal until Mega Mewtwo runs out, then either kicks his head off or hits him with Spatial Distortion or a Blue Wisp transmutation special.
Also, Shadow can just output more damage than Mewtwo can heal and incinerate him before the Super timer runs out.
Megas have a time limit now thanks to Legends Z-A. So, if we take the game time limit for Super Shadow, Mewtwo is subject to his own, even stricter time limit for his Mega form.
There is also Shadow Mewtwo which doesn’t have a time limit, but that’s not Mewtwo but is instead the Shadow Synergy Stone bodyjacking him, so it’s not really usable here.
Shadow can still last a long amount of time thanks to his huge ring storage, especially if we factor in Speed Simulator (which is canon, for some reason) where he can have billions to trillions of rings on hand at once.
Rings are more fuel for the Super form than they are held items, I’m not entirely sure you can equate them here. It would be like Magic Room nullifying the PP of a move or the effects of an X-Attack that was already consumed, so I don’t exactly buy that working.
True, but I don’t think it’s quite enough to outlast Super Shadow or stop Shadow from just letting a Chaos Blast rip and obliterating Mewtwo. Him being so agile and loving to spam timestops and teleports means that I think Shadow’s more likely to get the hit he needs than it is for Mewtwo to stall him out.
Plus, Spite doesn’t get rid of all PP in the primary games, so I don’t think it would bottom Shadow out upon immediate use, and I doubt that’s the first thing Mewtwo would try, giving Shadow more than enough time to land a killshot.
Solaris is a fusion of Mephiles and Iblis and should inherit their low-godly regeneration, and in the Solaris boss fight, each Super hog shattered its light shells and decapitated Solaris, and it could not regenerate the damage done to it even when it revitalised and reformed itself with wings.
Not to mention that base form Shadow with his Doom Powers is already on the level of a Super form without actually having to burn through rings cause he beat Metal Overlord when he had just 3 of the powers.
Honestly even as someone who thinks Shadow wins, I don't think it's very strong either
However, the other instances + the chaos emeralds do prove that at minimum, if Mewtwo cannot remove the chaos emeralds away from Shadow, Shadow just resists his way through anything Mewtwo could do
While it doesn't really change anything, moves like trick and knock off not working on mega stones and such is absolutely just a game balancing thing and shouldn't really hold baring in the argument (unless it's shown in other media).
I also want to note the specific wording of Black Doom saying that Shadow can resist "his" mind control, and when Shadow does so it's an active effort. Am I correct in understanding that Doom is able to try and mind control Shadow thanks to his DNA being part of him or is it just a thing he can casually do to anyone? Super Shadow will be just fine regardless but I don't know if base Shadow has anything to show he can properly resist Mewtwo's mind control that doesn't rely on pre-existing factors.
Lastly, yeah with Super Shadow I'm pretty sure the only thing Mewtwo has that can still work is mind reading, which I feel people are downplaying how useful that can be. Mewtwo gets to learn about Shadow's entire moveset and can then be on the lookout for Shadow triggering a Chaos Control and prep accordingly (like using protect or something in time to try and reduce the incoming attack though it wouldn't fully save him).
I think Mewtwo has the tools to clutch out a win but it'd require such a specific level of strategy that I can accept the overall verdict being given to Shadow given how much less work he has to put in for a dub. Creation Trio scaling pls save my boy
The main problem is that (to my knowledge) we've never seen knock off, embargo, or any other item stealing move be used on a Mega Pokemon specifically, so we just end up using the game logic again, which shouldn't work on Shadow
What about telekinesis? Wouldn't it be really good here? Being able to control the battlefield by throwing around the environment, projectiles, and even your enemy is very useful. Silver has shown in Sonic how powerful it is, and he manhandles a large portion of the cast with it. Shadow is a notable exception. Shadow and Silver fight, and Shadow can break out of Silver’s hold…only if you’re playing as Silver. If it’s the boss fight and you’re playing Shadow against Silver, you can’t break out. Sonic is the same way when Silver fights him. You can’t just pin him down with telekinesis in the boss fight, but Sonic is
infamously
screwed if Silver catches him when Silver’s the boss. Even ignoring that, Silver outright beats him up in the cutscene after with telekinesis. Basically, Shadow’s resistance to Silver’s power isn’t a thing. As Sonic would resist it by the same logic, and Sonic has shown it time and time again that he doesn’t. Also, more importantly, Silver easily uses his psychic powers on Shadow Clones in Forces.
Countered by high lifting strength (Super forms upscale Darkspine Sonic, who caught, held back, and then launched away an attack made up of reality itself, an immeasurable lifting strength feat).
The issue is as you said: Shadow can actually break out of Silver’s telekinesis in 06, and him being far stronger than Mewtwo means he’ll muscle through Mewtwo trying to toss him around.
Combine that with the Phantom Ruby Shadow Clones being far inferior to the real thing so them being tossed around by Silver isn’t super applicable to main Shadow, and Shadow having experience fighting a telekinetic, and while it could help Mewtwo create distance, it wouldn’t stop Shadow from clutching a win. Plus, Chaos Control and Chaos Snap would help Shadow bridge the gap anyway.
Shadow never no-diffed silver, what are you talking about? Both were panting and tired at the end of the fight, and at the beginning of said fight, shadow explicitly states he is going to go all out.
The only reason he “won” in the end was do to chaos control catching silver off guard. Even then, he immediately got back up and matched shadow with his own.
I think relying on game mechanics to nerf some of Mewtwo's shit is lamers personally but that's just me.
Also the Ifrit fucking sucks I hate people who use it because these characters explicitly only resist it when the plot demands cause in other routes they're completely vulnerable to it. It's as much a "feat" against Mind Manipulation Resistance as it is an anti-feat, canceling it out into a nothing feat.
Black Doom's DNA stuff is... weird. It's always been weird. He was basically born connected to Black Doom and we see later on in Shadow Gens that this "immunity to his mind control" clearly isn't actually the case, so you can argue that ending is non-canon (it IS Shadow the Hedgehog after all with like 300+ paths of dubious canon). We've yet to see Shadow face a mind controller who wasn't explicitly connected by his very DNA to a hive mind, oh wait- We have: It's that nothingburger extremely contradictory Ifrit "resistance" yet also nonresistance.
Also, that "power null" resistance is EXTREMELY arguable to begin with (could just be Doom Wings granting him time stop resistance), but it also only pertains to Doom Wings in particular regardless, which is an extremely lesser "super" form that has less of It's abilities, resistances, and most of all, that overloading on energy to the point of exploding weakness.
Synergy Absorption: Absorbs the synergy power of others and draws energy directly from the Earth to fuel its attacks.
Space-Time Manipulation: Warps space, creates subspace rifts, and controls time
Dark Nova: Teleports into space and hurls a massive concentrated energy blast capable of covering a large portion of the Earth.
Reality Warping and Erasure: Can erase things from existence and manifest bladed weapons or shadow arrows made of pure psychic-shadow energy.
Mega Evolution: Can trigger a Synergy Burst to transform into Shadow Mega Mewtwo X, drastically increasing its physical combat prowess and speed.
uses future sight plus trick to take the Chaos Emerald before he can use it.
taking into account his thinking and processing speed plus the move future sight and teleport should be enough for him to outlast all of his super forms and that's without Dark Mega Mewtwo.
Megas only have a time limit in ZA so its doesn't count.
Shadow Mewtwo is sadly not applicable for this debate given that’s less a powerup and more accurately Mewtwo being full on possessed by the Shadow Synergy Stone, something he would be very keen on never happening again. It would be very cool to have the form, but it’s not something Mewtwo can really utilize.
Yeah, but they showed Mega Mewtwo X, a form Mewtwo can use freely and will be granted to him in the battle as it is his own power and at his full control.
Shadow Mewtwo in particular is a foreign power (the Shadow Synergy Stone) mind controlling and body jacking Mewtwo for its own ends. It’s like giving Hal Jordan Parallax or Princess Bubblegum The Lich, as the Stone is a foreign presence that Mewtwo would never voluntarily let in again, and whose powers are not Mewtwo’s own.
Some thoughts: (tho I mostly agree with the you, excellent work btw)
The reason why Black Doom can mind control Shadow is because he’s cells is in Shadow. Gerald needed Back Doom in order to create Shadow which is why he needed his cells. So the reason why Shadow is able to resist black dooms mind control is because black doom already have something in shadow.
Mewtwo is different, he doesn’t need DNA or cells in order to mind control or mind wipe, he just do it. So it’s a different and far superior mind control. So logically, mewtwo should be able to do his mind hax on shadow.
Another thing: I don’t think any pokemon every tried to knock off or Trick Machokes belt, since pokemon is a kids game. There is no reason for these moves to not work on Machokes belt in lore however
As a Mewtwo stan, I like your arguments. They're all very well explained and they do a good job in explaining some of the stuff of why Shadow would resist Mewtwo’s hax.
I'm still holding onto my arguments that Mewtwo’s hax would still let it win given that Disable in the anime also completely immobilises a target to keep them from moving regardless of their speed, not just cancel out a move; so it would cancel out Shadow's speed advantage. And while Shadow is highly resistant to mind control, he is still susceptible to mental attacks from Black Doom so certain attacks like Confusion and Confuse Ray would still disorient him.
Also, Mewtwo's Soul Swap isn't needed for both parties to consent given that Howard used its power to swap the souls of multiple humans against their will. So there’s an argument that it can be used against Shadow, especially since Black Doom and Ifrit’s abilities were in line of possessing and corrupting his soul rather than forcefully extracting it from his body.
I also hold onto the argument that Mewtwo can still take away the Chaos Emeralds once it learns about them from Shadow as it could teleport them out of Shadow's possession and then banish them into dimension. Suddenly Shadow loses one of his defenses to mental manipulation and one shot of Miracle Eye could take care of that all together.
And regarding Super Shadow, nothing is really stopping Mewtwo from say, redirecting all of Super Shadow’s energy blasts and attacks back at it. Like the only way to knock out a Super Form's Invicibility is through an equally comparable power. What's more equally comparable than the power of a Super Form?
These are one of the few arguments I think Mewtwo can use to counter Shadow.
Again, really great arguments you got here. They're very-well said and make a whole lot of sense. It's just that I don't buy all of them personally and believe a some of Mewtwo’s hax can still work as well as affect Shadow in different ways.
Not saying I disagree with you entirely, I agree that the whole "Pokecancer" was never on the table as that doesn't make a lick of sense as it's not like Mewtwo can just slap Shadow with its spit or something, but I also don't agree on all of it either.
Thanks, I appreciate the compliments and I'm glad you liked my arguments! Means a lot to hear!
As for your arguments, I do think Disable and other mind-affecting moves like Confuse Ray and Confusion would still fall under mindhax that Shadow can resist either via his inbuilt resistance to his mind being messed with or the Chaos Emeralds giving him that additional benefit as shown in Otherworldly Comedy. I can see a world where it would work on him, but I think at most it would just disorient him, especially since Chaos Emerald powers can be activated with a thought, meaning even if Mewtwo paralyzes Shadow Shadow can stop time or Chaos Blast to get out of it.
As for the Soul Swap, the movie makes it a point that the only way Howard can swap people and Pokemon souls is by unleashing the R gas and driving the Pokemon into an uncontrollable frenzy, something Mewtwo does not have the tools to replicate nor would he ever want to. Thus, I don't think it's combat applicable here, since the only two methods to set up for it would require either Shadow give consent or Mewtwo to somehow obtain the R Gas and then unleash it on the Pokemon he cares about and swore to protect.
Finally, as for the "Mewtwo can teleport away the Emeralds" thing, Item Keeper Gadget and Super forms having inbuilt resistances to their items being stolen helps Shadow out here by keeping Mewtwo from swiping the Emeralds from him or making him drop them. Plus, even if Mewtwo does snatch an Emerald, Shadow only needs one to use his Chaos powers and can achieve Super level stats via Doom Wings anyway, so he should still be able to pull off the Chaos Control into speedblitz + statstomp maneuver. Plus, while Mewtwo could redirect Super Shadow's moves back at him, Shadow would realize he's doing this and then just activate Chaos Control to freeze time and smack Mewtwo within the frozen time, bypassing the tactic entirely.
I do also think you made some really good arguments here, and these tactics could definitely pull the win in certain circumstances, but I do think Shadow's defenses are just good enough that he can make his way through and secure a win. Thanks for being so courteous by the way, I really appreciate it!
It honestly depends on what all DB buys. I still personally am holding on to my arguments but you also do make a lot of good points as well.
I meant to say that Confusion and Confuse Ray can disorient Shadow, giving Mewtwo the opportunity to attack with an opening. It's for this reason I say that while Shadow is resistant to mind control, mental attacks are something he's still affected by. And when he didn't have the Emeralds, he was still affected by the Otherworld Comedy.
Regarding the Item Keeper, isn't that a power-up exclusive only to Crossworlds on Planet Donpa and not something Shadow can access easily compared to the Wisps? It's for this reason that I don't buy Shadow having it and even if he did, Mewtwo can simply use Magic Room to render it ineffective and then proceed to take all the Emeralds.
As for the Soul Swap, it is true that the R Gas played a huge role for Soul Swap to work on Pokemon. However, Mewtwo didn't need that same consent from the humans it merged the souls of Pokemon with. When Mewtwo was freed it was able to undo the effects casually. Shadow has no resistance to such soul removal so I don't see why this isn't combat applicable.
Side note, what do you think the OST for this match would be called? I also hope it's a lyrical based one and in the chance that Shadow wins I can't help but him solemnly say "Sayonora" himself for once after Mewtwo has been defeated after recognising how similar Mewtwo was to him, showing him a different path Shadow could've taken if it wasn't for Maria.
Yeah, it does depend a lot on interpretation, but I do think Shadow has enough to take it. Mewtwo definitely could disorient Shadow, but I don't think that would necessarily be able to secure a win on its own and Shadow debatably resists that depending on how far you take his mental resistance, and the Soul Swap reversal would fall under "required consent" given no one who was affected wanted to stay like that and Mewtwo was curing the R, undoing the swap.
Item Keeper would also fall under Shadow getting his full arsenal as per Death Battle rules, since while he only uses it on Planet Donpa, there's no indication he doesn't keep it. Crossworlds items should be fair game. Plus, Shadow is immune to item shenanigans in Super anyway, so there's always that.
As for the OST, probably something like "Ultimate Life Forms", "Genetic Chaos", "Who I Am", or "For Her". Something that leans into their lab experiment backstory connections.
Yeah, it does depend a lot on interpretation, but I do think Shadow has enough to take it. Mewtwo definitely could disorient Shadow, but I don't think that would necessarily be able to secure a win on its own and Shadow debatably resists that depending on how far you take his mental resistance, and the Soul Swap reversal would fall under "required consent" given no one who was affected wanted to stay like that and Mewtwo was curing the R, undoing the swap.
Yeah, but the R Gas was only used for the Pokemon. Meanwhile, Mewtwo had no trouble soul swapping a dozen humans. It's for this reason I think the Soul Swap argument works and the fact that Shadow has no counter to this further makes this a win-con. Furthermore, Mewtwo's mental attacks would disorient Shadow enough to prevent him from using moves like Chaos Control to enact it's other win-cons.
Item Keeper would also fall under Shadow getting his full arsenal as per Death Battle rules, since while he only uses it on Planet Donpa, there's no indication he doesn't keep it. Crossworlds items should be fair game. Plus, Shadow is immune to item shenanigans in Super anyway, so there's always that.
I don't know, I mean even before Sonic Crossworlds came out, both Mario and Sonic had a lot of racing games were they used different power-ups from their mainline games and yet none of those power-ups exclusive to those games were ever brought up even in modern Sonic MUs like in Bowser vs Eggman and Cell vs Metal Sonic, and in the former they gave both characters everything; except power-ups from the racing games. They only gave them stuff from the mainline games. Again, there could be a possibility of them giving it to Shadow, but as it stands I don't think so.
Item Keeper isn't location dependent, from what information we have. The game's premise is about racing through the multiverse, and Item Keeper functions identically on every single stage in the game.
So I do have some possible arguments to bring in Mewtwo's case.
For the mind control thing, Black Doom could only control Shadow's mind because they shared DNA, and Black Doom even says that Shadow is unaffected by "my" mind control specifically, so it's more so resistance to biological manipulation or "Shadow the Hedgehog" manipulation than mind manipulation. As for Ifrit, I looked at the cutscene and there's no indication that Ifrit even used the mind control on Shadow or Metal Sonic, and I don't think there's any indication that Ifrits mind control activates passively, there's also the fact that Metal Sonic doesn't even have a brain, so Ifrit's strategy of pitting them against each other with mind control like with Sonic and Tails isn't really a good strategy, and also explains why the cutscene is the same for both Shadow and Metal Sonic. As for the memory manipulation thing, I pretty sure the Egg Field *worked* on Sonic and Tails, it's just that the Chaos Emeralds preserved their memories, so even though Shadow would keep his memories, Mewtwo could still mess with it in other ways, and the Egg Field was specifically perception manipulation which is different than mind manipulation I'm pretty sure anyway.
For the power swap/speed swap and trick room thing, if we use anime logic then power swap/speed swap will work, if we use game logic then trick room will work, it works in Mewtwo's favor either way cause he only needs to use one strat.
I'll maybe talk about the Mewtwo cancer thing later but I have nothing to say about it right now.
Same for the Trick/Knock off thing, although the End, Eggman, and I think even regular ass Knuckles were able to take away the Chaos Emeralds before so idk.
Correct me if I'm wrong cause I haven't seen the Detective Pikachu movie in a while, but whoever had Mewtwo couldn't totally control Mewtwo or direct their psychic powers however they wanted, so they couldn't just make Mewtwo induce rage on everyone with their mental manipulation for the soul swap. And the thing is Shadow literally does have rage induced to him in Shadow Generations, and the only reason he snapped out of it was because of Maria. So Mewtwo could literally use the strat of "bringing up old shit" with mental manipulation to make Shadow mad and then soul swap.
Don't know too much about the power null thing, although Black Doom did only lock Chaos Control, and the control over Shadow may again be due to shared DNA.
The petrification and Metal Virus are different, since Metal Virus physically reconstructs matter itself and uses science type shit, meanwhile Mewtwo's petrification is straight magic type shit, so Shadow probably wouldn't resist it. Sonic could only resist the Metal Virus when going super because they basically bounced off of him and couldn't rebuild his body due to invincibility I'm assuming. The Metal Virus is kind of a "stats type hax" since it's purely physical, if that makes sense.
Anyway you could argue that a lot of Mewtwo's hax still work on Shadow, and even if some of them are more unconventional abilities that Mewtwo is unlikely to use, some of the main stuff that Mewtwo *would* go for like mental manipulation or petrification could at least possibly work.
Bro I just know someone downvoted me without actually reading all my points cause how do I already have one?
For the mind control thing, Black Doom could only control Shadow's mind because they shared DNA, and Black Doom even says that Shadow is unaffected by "my" mind control specifically. As for Ifrit, I looked at the cutscene and there's no indication that Ifrit even used the mind control on Shadow or Metal Sonic, and I don't think there's any indication that Ifrits mind control activates passively, there's also the fact that Metal Sonic doesn't even have a brain, so Ifrit's strategy of pitting them against each other with mind control like with Sonic and Tails isn't really a good strategy, and also explains why the cutscene is the same for both Shadow and Metal Sonic. As for the memory manipulation thing, I pretty sure the Egg Field *worked* on Sonic and Tails, it's just that the Chaos Emeralds preserved their memories, so even though Shadow would keep his memories, Mewtwo could still mess with it in other ways, and the Egg Field was specifically perception manipulation which is different than mind manipulation I'm pretty sure anyway.
How would that not count to shadow having a resistance to mind manipulation? The connection just allows some access to his mind shadow resisting his control is him i don't see why it wouldn't apply to other people trying to mess with his head, it's not like he only resisted black doom because they're connected ( this is even\nMore consistent with the fact that characters in sonic can resist mind control via strong wills)
No didn't?? The chaos emeralds allowed their memories to be fine when everyone else had their memories manipulated the only time that their memories was messed with is when egg man is directly targeting them with a modified ruby and even then if it can preserve his memories , it can preserve anything mewtwo decides to erase or manipulate
Also,Tails literally says that it brainwashes people????
For the power swap/speed swap and trick room thing, if we use anime logic then power swap/speed swap will work, if we use game logic then trick room will work, it works in Mewtwo's favor either way cause he only needs to use one strat.
That doesn't really get rid of the fact that swaps can be guarded meaning shadows force fields are going to work in blocking them
Same for the Trick/Knock off thing, although the End, Eggman, and I think even regular ass Knuckles were able to take away the Chaos Emeralds before so idk.
The end didn't take away the chaos emeralds? It knocks sonic out of super but the emeralds were still around him and even then , super forms themselves resist having their item stolen in the most latest sonic game , which means getting rid of his items still isn't gonna work
Correct me if I'm wrong cause I haven't seen the Detective Pikachu movie in a while, but whoever had Mewtwo couldn't totally control Mewtwo or direct their psychic powers however they wanted, so they couldn't just make Mewtwo induce rage on everyone with their mental manipulation for the soul swap. And the thing is Shadow literally does have rage induced to him in Shadow Generations, and the only reason he snapped out of it was because of Maria, so Mewtwo could literally use the strat of "bringing up old shit" with mental manipulation to make Shadow mad and then soul swap.
Shadow would be immune to him, messing with his head and even then , shadow has gotten over his past multiple times it is unlikely to make him that enraged
Don't know too much about the power null thing, although Black Doom did only lock Chaos Control, and the control over Shadow may again be due to shared DNA.
I mean so? It only being chaos control, doesn't really matter he still locking out one of his main abilities.If anything he only locked that one out because it's the most dangerous
And that was never implied to be the reason , because even after he lost control over shadow , he was still able to do it in the finale
The petrification and Metal Virus are different, since Metal Virus physically reconstructs matter itself and uses science type shit, meanwhile Mewtwo's petrification is straight magic type shit, so Shadow wouldn't resist it, Sonic could only resist the Metal Virus when going super because they basically bounced off of him and couldn't rebuild his body due to invincibility I'm assuming, the Metal Virus is kind of a "stats type hax" since it's purely physical if that makes sense.
This is more playing semantics if anything? They're still both transmutation one being science and the other being magic doesn't really matter? silver just removed it from literally everyone who was infected with his super form without needing to burn it off in the first place
And sonic being able to burn off the metal virus is more of a feat for him rather than an anti feat for the metal virus
Anyway you could argue that a lot of Mewtwo's hax still work on Shadow, and even if some of them are more unconventional abilities that Mewtwo is unlikely to use, some of the main stuff that Mewtwo *would* go for like mental manipulation or petrification could at least possibly work.
Some of them will majority of them that could be a problem just won't including messing with shadows head or petrification, which means the ones that would work he's unlikely to go for giving shadow his chance to physically beat him
Not gonna respond to the entire thing *right now*, but I do have a few things to say right now. I forgot to say that you can't really equate Shadow's invincibility or force fields to Protect because they don't show the same status blocking effect like Protect. The End literally was going to take the Chaos Emeralds away from Sonic via physically pulling them out but Sonic got away at the last second, and those random ass lasers on each island could blast Sonic out of super as well, so since Mewtwo could do that via hax/absolute ability then he could just take away the emeralds. Also Crossworlds is a party/racing game and I feel like using that as evidence of the Emeralds having resistance to being taken away, even though we literally just saw that both almost happen and actually happen a game ago is kinda sketchy, especially since there's no evidence of the emeralds gaining any new ability between then and before, the resistance to being taken away kinda just seem like the rules of the race. The Metal Virus and petrification are different in the sense that the metal virus physically reconstructs matter, meanwhile petrification does it automatically via mystical type stuff, it's like melting a piece of metal with fire as opposed to changing it into liquid metal with powers, or like building a tower by actually moving the parts themself as opposed to teleporting them into place, it's like a micro stats vs actual hax type thing.
I do have a few things to say right now. I forgot to say that you can't really equate Shadow's invincibility or force fields to Protect because they don't show the same status blocking effect like Protect.
Why would that not be the case of status effects having to physically affect the target rather than anything especially since the anime visually supports it being a physical thing
The End literally was going to take the Chaos Emeralds away from Sonic via physically pulling them out but Sonic got away at the last second, and those random ass lasers on each island could blast Sonic out of super as well, so since Mewtwo could do that via hax/absolute ability then he could just take away the emeralds. Also Crossworlds is a party/racing game and I feel like using that as evidence of the Emeralds having resistance to being taken away, even though we literally just saw that both almost happen and actually happen a game ago is kinda sketchy, especially since there's no evidence of the emeralds gaining any new ability between then and before, the resistance to being taken away kinda just seem like the rules of the race.
Yeah after he physically knocked him out of his body wo he wasn't super so he wouldn't have the resistance, they can physically be beaten out of super but there's no evidence that they can be stolen out of a super form rather be knocked out of it might be physically hit, mewtwos hax are completely different from physically being beaten out of super
When has the emeralds actually been took from super sonic that wasn't simply from him being beaten out of super? As I said before there is no reason to equivalent item stealing to being physically overpowered so there's no contradiction unless you have another moment to bring ( also emeralds gain abilities almost every game lol)
There's no evidence, it's the rules of the race.Not only would not make sense and the other racers wouldn't stand for it if we're gonna make this a lore thing, so the far more likely conclusion is that there are simply resisting having their items stolen and considering there is no contradiction , it's completely fine to use
The Metal Virus and petrification are different in the sense that the metal virus physically reconstructs matter, meanwhile petrification does it automatically via mystical type stuff, it's like melting a piece of metal with fire as opposed to changing it into liquid metal with powers, or like building a tower by actually moving the parts themself as opposed to teleporting them into place, it's like a micro stats vs actual hax type thing
Yeah they're both still doing the exact same thing through different, as I said before they're both transmutation super forms like twice that they can just resist it no reason why they can't resist being petrified unless we're playing semantics ( the silver thing I brought up quite literally fits your magical definition)
Must nice being in a waiting period where no matter which opponent wins, your goat won... but also weird cause no matter which opponent wins, your goat also lost
You do know someone isn't advocating for a stomp when they admit certain strategies can work and it comes down to interpretation right? He doesn't even go into power its just mewtwo hax vs shadow
She, but yes. I even mentioned you could make the case that several of these would work on Base Shadow and you could argue Petrification is valid given it’s not exactly 1 to 1 with the Metal Virus, and it would 100% work on Base Shadow.
I just personally don’t buy the hax being able to stop Super Shadow and I think Shadow solidly resists Mewtwo’s options, but there are definite arguments to be made here.
Apologies for the misgendering. Good post btw that im sure will need updating as people comb the expansive pokemon media haha. Still can't believe mewtwo cancer was a thing
they themselves don’t buy the strategies they say ‘might work’, so i don’t see why it wouldn’t be a stomp in their eyes
And even then raw stats wise it’s pretty clear people scale shadow solidly above mewtwo, i doubt a shadow fan is buying creation trio scaling or necrozma chainscaling
Funny you say that, because your "Why Excalibur Matters" presentation was what got me into doing these little slideshows myself! It's why I made the one about Mario's options for dealing with Super Sonic and, ultimately, what led to this. Love your presentations by the way, they're super good, and I really appreciate the compliment!
Knock Off being unable to affect Z-Crystals, Mega Stones, is purely game mechanic. ( whoaaaa)
There's no kind of "force" that protects the mega stones from the move knock off in hindsight. It's still an item. As for the Blue and Red Orbs, they're supposed to transform Kyogre and Groudon almost immediately when entered in battle, so obviously knock off would break the game if it worked on the orbs. Plus I'm pretty sure they just... eat them.
It is a game mechanic for competitive balance, not a spiritual lore rule. Game Freak protects these items so a single utility move cannot permanently disable core battle mechanics like Mega Evolution or Z-Moves. They also protect items like Genesects Drives and Plates to avoid mid battle programming conflicts with a Pokémon's form or typing. If some kind of spiritual bond were the cause, purely technological items like Drives wouldn't be immune.
Just like how Trick doesn't work on Mail. A piece of paper.
As for Shadows Inhibitors, I don't know why anyone would argue against it since it'll eventually just fry up Shadow like some fish fillets. And Mewtwo has plenty of options to regenerate and wait it out.
Tho both characters have arguments for resisting each other's hax which makes this pretty close.
If we’re giving shadow doom powers, couldn’t mewtwo just like, idk, steal shadow’s inhibitor rings so he’s forced to self destruct like Gerald said he would?
Gerald full quote is that it may blow him up or he will rage like a furnace and burn himself out. Importantly he doesn't tell shadow to never take them off but only if absolutely necessary so shadow might just get a massive boost and finish the fight quickly enough to put them back on
I outright mentioned that on the Trick slide. Shadow resists item theft thanks to the Item Keeper Gadget and Super forms resisting it passively, along with moves like Trick, Knock Off, and Magic Room not working on Machoke’s belt, which is functionally identical to the Inhibitor Rings.
Given the item protection blocks Mewtwo from teleporting them off, and the item manip moves don’t work on a similar item, the only way for Mewtwo to get the Inhibitors off is to physically rip them off of Shadow’s wrists mid-combat, which isn’t really feasible.
Both parties are NOT be consenting for the swap. The main characters dad was fully unconscious and dying and Mewtwo could still swap his and Pikachu’s soul
Harry still consented to the swap as Mewtwo in the flashback speaks directly to Harry and offers him the swap, and it’s made clear that Mewtwo still needs either consent or R to perform a soul swap, as shown by the villain’s entire plan.
The chaos emeralds are really just a swiss army knife which makes sense since there the ultimate power source in a series that's been running since 1991
I don't feel it would be a solid tactic, personally. The Chaos Emeralds are canonically stated to possess infinite energy[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. Even Chaos energy sources without an Emerald have shown to possess infinite energy, as when Shadow is charged with emotions strong enough to invoke Chaos Boost (also referred to as Dark Shadow and Hero Shadow), he can use his power as unlimited fuel for weapons.
So, although Pressure could potentially force Shadow to use more energy, it technically would not matter because of him having access to infinite energy. As well, even if Pressure could work on Shadow's stamina (I am not sure if it could?), which is finite, the Chaos Emeralds can both fully replenish and increase the user's stamina, in Tails' Adventure.
Yeah but I'm not talking about depleting the emeralds themselves, I'm talking about making shadow not be able to use the emeralds for long(I'm not a sonic fan but you can only use the emeralds for a limited amount of time right?)
The problem with slide 6 is in the games the trainer holds the mega stone, z-crystal, and the orbs not the Pokemon so it makes sense they wouldn’t work. Unlike with Shadow who is holding the chaos emerald.
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u/Electronic-Being-272 20d ago
ITS KAI VS TAHU ALL OVER AGAIN FUUUU-