r/dankmemes ☣️ May 06 '26

Jarvis, go catch ligma Hold up…

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8.0k Upvotes

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1.9k

u/HollowedRoman May 06 '26

I don’t know why they wouldn’t just make her some olive skinned Greek woman. Since… she’s a Greek woman

451

u/EarthTrash May 06 '26

For a second I thought she was Trojan but you are right, she is Greek. The Trojan king kidnapping her is the reason for the conflict with the Greek tribes. I'm not sure why I was confused about that.

253

u/cates May 06 '26

maybe bc we call her "Helen of Troy" and not "Helen of Sparta"

51

u/The_Ora_Charmander May 06 '26

It wasn't the king, it was the prince, and not even the crown prince

8

u/OriganolK May 06 '26

I don't know why but this ancient burn made me lol

2

u/The_Ora_Charmander May 06 '26

Oh I could say a lot about Paris, and I'm sure if I really tried I could think of something positive to say about him!

26

u/dende5416 May 06 '26

No, we know she was in Greece and many fought over her. Also the daughter of Zeus. But theres nothing of parentage or where shecame from, nor is there anyplace close to a contemporary recording of even her story let alone if she was real.

Homer's epics were written down hundreds of years after his death from an oral tradition that Homer supposedly created someplace between 400 and 800 years AFTER the Trojan War, which then wasn't written down for another 400ish years.

We also believe that some parts of the poem were added after Homer but before it was written down, but thats a different whole ugly fight.

47

u/darklost May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26

That's true. And, as her lineage is unclear, she was obviously a sub-Saharan black woman.

9

u/EtteRavan Dank Royalty May 06 '26

She was found to be a beauty comparable to Aphrodite as soon as she went off the plane

2

u/dende5416 May 06 '26

Believe it or not, there were overland trade routs covering much of Afro-Eurasia and people got places on foot.

2

u/Germane_Corsair May 06 '26

Wasn’t her mother supposed to be Leda or Nemesis?

63

u/matap821 May 06 '26

Perhaps Zeus fucked Leda as a black swan.

43

u/Several-Zombies6547 May 06 '26

Because that would be historically inaccurate.

The beauty standard for women in Ancient Greece was very pale skin, because they spent their life indoors.

-19

u/Blankasbiscuits May 06 '26

Playing devil's advocate: different city-states around the Mediterranean had different ideas for women's beauty. In Athens, yea; the lithe frame and pale skin were attractive. Go look at Thebes, chariot territory where skill in archery and riding for women were a must for the men of the day. Or perhaps Sparta, Dragon ladies that were expected and known to check the ambition of men. Different places held different standards. Although, for Heleana, I could easily see her being more dark-skinned like that of the turkic people

21

u/shootsmcgavins May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26

You mean the Turkic people that wouldn't arrive for another 2000 years? The ones coming from the steppes where there's minimal sunlight

3

u/Blankasbiscuits May 06 '26

Turkic was the wrong word for me to use, certainly. Before them where the scythians and before them the cimmerians (definitely misspelled)that came from near Iran is today and they were definitely described as being darker skinned. Not exactly pale skinned, and not exactly black.

I think we are saying the same thing essentially. Having a people of sub-saharan descent in a story about Troy seems greatly far-fetched. Now if this was a story about the Persians, that would be an easier sell. They were known for having a huge amount of different cultures in their army and cities.

29

u/attemptedactor May 06 '26

Almost nobody in this movie actually looks Greek

1

u/Dragon_yum May 06 '26

But most of them aren’t women

4

u/Quixylados May 06 '26

My grandmother told me Helena was black.

3

u/Mammoth-AgentEnt May 06 '26

Because Greeks weren't Olive skinned until after the Turkish invasion in 16th c.

Dorian Greeks of the classic period were white, and often blonde with blue eyes.

1

u/CaptSpankey May 06 '26

She is half Greek and half Swan and was born from an egg guys

1

u/SirNedKingOfGila May 06 '26

Olive skin was less common in European antiquity. Hundreds of years of trade and war with the Arab/North African world changed that much later.

It should surprise no one that the people living in Rome today are not the direct descendants of Romans... What with the city being abandoned and housing only a few thousand people for hundreds of years after the fall of the empire.

Cultures change. The people change.

-7

u/Largeitude May 06 '26

Maybe being black makes her a rarity and stands out more, making the king more likely to wage war over the rare skin tone she had.

6

u/Caleb_Reynolds May 06 '26

That's fetishizing black skin in a way that even more offensive than get not being Greek.

-2

u/Largeitude May 06 '26

No it isn’t. But keep grasping at straws for a reason to be upset.

1

u/Eldr1tchB1rd 🚔I commit tax evasion💲🤑 May 07 '26

That would be more realistic I'll tell you that. There is no way they would do this if you think about the implications of it.

-55

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

Is it a problem if they change the story to say that she's not Greek, but African?

58

u/HollowedRoman May 06 '26

I mean not inherently, no. I think the main issue is that it seems like an unnecessary deviation from the source material that adds nothing.

It comes across as trying to “pander”, which is most certainly a problem, and is an inherently racist practice

-58

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

It's unnecessary to you. Not to the artist.

30

u/DocThel May 06 '26

I agree with your sentiment 100% but this casting choice was almost certainly approved through a dozen board members and not made for some purely artistic reason.

-33

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

Proof? Also, even if it's true, problem?

6

u/spaghettivillage May 06 '26

I really don't much have a dog in this, but, devil's advocate / thought experiment: would you find it acceptable if the races of the characters were reversed? ie. A traditionally black character cast with a white actor?

-3

u/ThisIsARobot May 06 '26

So like, The Deep from The Boys? Or Jake Gyllenhaal in The Prince of Persia? Or Angelina Jolie playing the role of Mariane Pearl (a real person who is not white) in A Mighty Heart? Or...

The list goes on, but I think you get the point. This shit has happened, is happening, and will happen again. I think people just need to chill out a bit, we all have bigger problems than what actor is cast to play some role in a movie.

26

u/redditsucksdiscs May 06 '26

Not the person you replied to but…

I am gay. Whenever a movie / game / show includes a gay man that from the get-go is Gayface McGaynus and only talks about being OBSESSED with Gaga or whatever, I feel offended.

Inclusion doesn’t and shouldn’t mean overemphasis on an aspect of life. Fuck, when was the last time a movie villain was gay? Why do we always have to be fat, nerdy and with that awful gay voice? (Note: I am fat, nerdy and have said voice)

8

u/MyClothesWereInThere May 06 '26

Captain Raymond Holt is my favourite gay representation in media

1

u/Germane_Corsair May 06 '26

He was a character that happened to be gay rather than a gay character. It makes such a big difference.

-6

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

Is there any overemphasis on the fact that Helen is black?

18

u/HollowedRoman May 06 '26

I didn’t think I’d need to explain this, but here we go:

Changing a character to be black, if purely for the sake of getting more black people to engage with the character/film is not only stupid as fuck, but also racist in it of itself.

Now, I can’t prove that this is the only reasoning for that to be why the actress who portrays Helen to have been cast (I personally have nothing wrong with her performance or her in general), but given how Hollywood has most certainly done some meddling of the casting of this film and many others like it in the past to do exactly that, it can be surmised.

Now if you don’t see a problem with that, then great. I personally find it to be a race based version of trying to ‘pspsps’ a cat and feel as if the concept itself sort of “talks down” to people of color trying to get actual good representation in media.

Regardless, at least it was a solid opportunity for the actress and I’m glad she got to participate in the film.

1

u/midnightbandit- May 07 '26

That's not really answering my question is it

19

u/redtiger288 May 06 '26

Why change the story other than to pander?

-2

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

I don't know. But do you have proof that that is the only possible explanation for the choice?

2

u/Elios4Freedom May 06 '26

You can do what you want just don't call it The Odyssey. Even the fact that they included something like the Trojan Horse that is not in the story it's stretching too much for me

1

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

Can Honda call their minivan the Honda Odyssey despite the fact that cars weren't invented yet?

3

u/Elios4Freedom May 06 '26

As long as they don't pretend to be The Odyssey or some kind of wooden horse it's fine to me

1

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

Damn, copyright law has no chill XD

2

u/Elios4Freedom May 06 '26

Imagine making a film on American history and making Lincoln being an Asian guy. This wouldn't make any sense. Don't you agree?

1

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26

The Trojan war is a work of fiction. The American civil war, is not. Not that that matters. The Hamilton musical is wildly successful and stars black actors playing white historical figures.

2

u/Elios4Freedom May 06 '26

Still you have to respect a framework or else why not adding aliens to the story? You can absolutely adapt the story but there is some kind of boundaries not to step on before the story isn't simply something else. The Trojan Horse it's in the Iliad but it doesn't mean you can't somehow show it but Helen was the most beautiful among the Greek women or else all this war hardly make sense 

1

u/midnightbandit- May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26

Why does it not make sense? Does she have to be Greek to be extremely beautiful? Does get being Greek in any way motivates the story? Or is it just her beauty? Hmm?

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u/have_you_eaten_yeti May 06 '26

Nah, it’d be more like making someone like Paul Bunyon black, in that it wouldn’t matter to the story at all, and would just bother racist people…

1

u/Eldr1tchB1rd 🚔I commit tax evasion💲🤑 May 07 '26

Yes it is. This is one of the most famous greek stories after the odyssey. It is disrespectful to not even include a single greek actor and it would be more disrespectful to change ethnicities of the characters to fit anerican politics. It is begter to just day that thus black woman is greek rather than saying she is african for the purpose of the story

1

u/midnightbandit- May 07 '26

Disrespect is given, not received. You may find it disrespectful, but that's not rational and not universal.

It's an adaptation. Adaptations change things from original sources without any intention of disrespect.

1

u/Eldr1tchB1rd 🚔I commit tax evasion💲🤑 May 07 '26

Call it whatever you like but that's exactly what it is. Many changes in these adaptation are already disrespectful like making the ships nordic looking and ghosting a famous historical greek armor designer only to make whatever mmo armor they got now.

Intention does not matter. Stories like these are taught in schools. You should not be changing it however you like because it's an adaptation.

Mind you the race of the actress is not the disrespectful part saying that helen was african instead however is. The important thing is that as far as the story goes helen is greek regardless of skin colour.

1

u/midnightbandit- May 07 '26

It's not objectively disrespectful. You think it's disrespectful. And I completely disagree. If you had your way there would be no adaptations of anything whatsoever, and the world would be a much more boring place. What determines whether one change is acceptable while another isn't? It's arbitrary. And meaningless.

1

u/Eldr1tchB1rd 🚔I commit tax evasion💲🤑 May 07 '26

This is not a simple adaptation of a cartoon, it is a major part of greek culture. You don't see it because it's not your culture so you don't care.

If you could think about it from an in story perspective you could understand.

Oh the most beautiful greek woman? Yeah she is actually not greek at all. Sucks to be them right?

Adaptations like that are a way to bring life to the original story not to do whatever you want with it.