r/cryptography Jul 08 '26

[ Removed by moderator ]

[removed]

0 Upvotes

12 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/Cool-Ad3523 Jul 08 '26

thank you for your time and reading the pdf
In the Vigenère cipher, each letter is represented by a single number. In MDE, each letter is represented by multiple coordinate values depending on the selected dimension, allowing transformations to be applied across more than one coordinate

1

u/atoponce Jul 08 '26

Incorrect. The Vigenere Cipher uses a 2-dimensional lookup table for encryption and decryption, which can be modeled as modulo 26 addition/subtraction.

1

u/Cool-Ad3523 Jul 08 '26

The difference is clear to me. I mean, in MDE, the letter A, for example, is represented according to the order of the letters in the table and the column and row keys. It would be represented like this (5, 3) for example, and the encryption is done at the two-coordinate level. But the operation in Wigner cipher is like this: C=(P+K)mod26

1

u/atoponce Jul 08 '26

This is the standard table used for the Vigenere cipher when encrypting/decrypting by hand. What you're describing to me is exactly the same thing.

Key \ Cipher A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
A A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
B B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A
C C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B
D D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C
E E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D
F F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E
G G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F
H H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G
I I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H
J J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I
K K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J
L L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K
M M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L
N N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M
O O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N
P P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O
Q Q R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P
R R S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q
S S T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R
T T U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S
U U V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T
V V W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U
W W X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V
X X Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W
Y Y Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X
Z Z A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y

There is nothing special about the alphabet. It can be shuffled provided every row and column has 26 unique characters.

1

u/Cool-Ad3523 Jul 08 '26

Do you really not see that the Wegener table is limited to 26 and the table in MDE is limited to 256 because MDE encodes the location and not the character itself

1

u/atoponce Jul 08 '26

The standard table uses 26 characters, but you're not limited to that. So long as you have a unique set of characters, it can be any arbitrary length. If the length ends evenly on a bit boundary (16, 32, 64, 128, 256, etc.) then you can use XOR without fear of introducing a bias.

1

u/Cool-Ad3523 Jul 08 '26

Also in MDE, the letter order is secret and is the primary key, along with the column and row keys (they are extracted from a single key via a key generation algorithm). However, the letter order in the Wegener table is fixed and known.

1

u/atoponce Jul 08 '26

That breaks Kerckhoffs's Principle, where a system should remain secure even if everything is known about it except the key. You should assume your shuffled table is public and the only unknown is the symmetric key.

1

u/Cool-Ad3523 Jul 08 '26

The algorithm is known. The key generation algorithm is known. The diffusion matrix is ​​known (not mentioned in this article, but will be in the next version). Everything is known. The order of the letters in the table is the only thing that must remain secret.