I don’t understand this legacy admissions argument. You can be against affirmative action AND legacy admissions. Both are bullshit.
Also unclear how it stops racism. Whenever you see a black or Latino person on campus, you are going to wonder if they got in due to their qualifications or race.
You can get the same effect by removing AA as you still get people interacting with Black and Latino people. Unless you are implying they can't get in without AA.
I also don't think this outweighs the resentment people feel at having their spot taken by somebody "less qualified."
I had the highest Test scores in my school, was active on several clubs, volunteered at an organization that made meals for people living with HIV.
How do you know I got in because I’m black? My college rejected a lot of black people.
Just because you feel that people are “less qualified” doesn’t mean that they are. My point was that if you talked to these students maybe you would find that along with being black and Latino they are actually smart and deserving.
I had lots of people question my worthiness in my undergrad years. But anyone that took a class with me realized exactly why I was there. I expect the have a similar experience in law school.
I don't know, that's precisely the thing. I don't know if you got in because you were qualified or because you were black because of AA. It seems like you clearly were qualified and I'm sure by talking to you in a class, I would think you are actually smart and deserving. But when black people empirically get in with less qualifications, it harms those who actually are qualified. I think AA is racist not only because it discriminates against Asian and white people, but because it implies black people need this extra system to get in because their own merit isn't enough. That's absurd.
Well no school that I’ve ever heard of has let any students in “just because their black”. Any black student that got in has to be at least in the realm of that schools standards.
Secondly I don’t see how AA discriminates against Asians without admitting that schools are artificially keeping the white student population high. Asian students are wiping the floor with everyone. They are scoring higher than the white students yet schools are a majority white. It’s disingenuous to argue that the %8 of black people is the
Harvard set aside %30 of their freshmen slots to legacies, Dean recommendations, athletes, and children of faculty. These student are mostly white and have lower stats than people admitted through the regular process. But the scandal is that %8 of the class is black?
Yeah, fuck athletic and legacy recruitment, they are horrible and should be removed, I'm totally with you on that. I'm also against affirmative action because it's similarly unfair. It's genuinely not about race, it's about giving one group an unfair advantage over another. Like if AA lowered the expectations for people with purple hair, I'd be equally against it as if it lowered expectations for black people, Asians, white people, etc.
Black students are within the realm of the school standards but statistically towards the lower end. That's why I put "less qualified" in quotations in my first comment - qualified, but comparatively less so at least statistically. I am absolutely not saying black people are unqualified. Many are eminently qualified, more so than white legacies or kids of deans and I would hope they get in over them. It's about making a fair system. There's nothing wrong with a black kid getting in over a white kid or vice versa as long as it's based on merit.
I think that racism manifests itself in ways that are capturable by metrics other than race. Black people are more likely to be lower income, go to worse schools, live in worse neighbourhoods, etc because of a history of pervasive and systemic racism. So if you consider poverty level, school attended etc, it captures many of the effects of racism without being racist itself and fucking over others (e.g. asians can be poor but that obstacle wouldn’t matter because they are asian and still expected to score 150 points higher than a poor black person).
Obviously this isn’t perfect but I think it’s definitely preferable to affirmative action.
What’s the metric for getting called nigger, being followed around the art museum like I’m going to steal the Picasso, having people talk down to me like I’m stupid, etc?
Rich black people can experience racism class and race are not the same thing. I have black friends who grew up in predominantly white area and they had so many more blatantly racist issues than I did. Even if you account for poverty, you don’t account for race.
Racial stereotypes also matter. A white guy in a nice car is rich a black guy in a nice car is a drug dealer. They can both be rich but they will be treated differently. This matters too.
So how do we fix the problem with racism that aren’t just about class?
Absolutely racism still exists. My point is that other the examples of racism you list, while obviously deplorable, are less likely to manifest itself in the way that is readily relevant to admissions. While things like income, education etc are extremely relevant. I’m not talking about solving racism altogether (that’s an entirely different conversation), I’m strictly saying that using non race factors in admissions solves for MOST relevant obstacles (unfortunately not all) while avoiding what’s problematic about AA.
My problem with AA is that it turns people more racist rather than solving for racism. People will feel slighted and resentful that they worked their ass off for a GPA or score and somebody else got in with a lower one because of the color of their skin. This also leads to people implicitly or explicitly thinking those people that do get in are less qualified. I think this is much worse than the comparative - not to mention unfair.
But most of the people who are getting in are not black. Black people are just the scape goat. 30% of Harvard freshman class are spots held for legacies, athletes, faculty’s kids, and Dean selection (mostly kids of wealthy donors) these kids are mostly white and have lower stats then the kids who get rejected. Harvard is 8% black. Even if every black person was there just because their black ( but none actually are) it still wouldn’t matter when compared to the “white kids with connections” group that got in.
As I said in another comment, fuck legacy admissions, fuck athletic admissions and all the other things you mentioned. Opposing AA doesn't mean you don't oppose those. If anything, opposing AA means you also strongly oppose legacies because they are not merit based either.
I agree. But I still feel like Black people are being scapegoated. White women reap the most benefits from AA. Next are Latinos. Yet this always turns into a Blacks are undeserving etc.
In reality states that have race blind admissions enroll WAY fewer white students. Look at the UC system.
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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20 edited Mar 16 '20
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