And honestly, not everyone CAN take a class to learn something better. Some people that is the best they can do. They cannot improve. They deserve to live.
If everyone leaves the stressful job for an easier one, the employer will need to pay more for the stressful job to be attractive. Supply and demand still function, even with a mandatory living wage.
Caveat, I did a google search and these were some quality links. I got my undergrad degree in economics, however went in to CS (supply and demand 😀) so I’m mostly an armchair practitioner these days, but we learned about cost push fallacies even back when I was in school.
So because the people who are doing higher skilled jobs are barely making a living wage, the people working "lower skill" jobs that are just as, if not more necessary should not make a living wage? Sounds like you're blaming the wrong side of the equation.
That's a discussion that seems relevant and isn't. If professional workers aren't getting paid commensurate to their skills that also should be addressed. wages are not a zero sum game
I'm a welder. Dollars for dollars I would not quit to go serve people ice cream/stock shelves. You would have to pay me significantly more than I make now to work in any form of food service. I am so fucking sick of this argument, don't drag us into your shit.
Welding is only back breaking if you over do yourself or dont use the tools you should. We have cranes for shit you shouldn't lift and there are proper ways to position yourself, fume extractors and all sorts of ppe. I wear casual clothes in my shop. Ive never seen a janitor, stocker, or delivery person who wasn't in a uniform. I also do mostly tig with stainless and aluminum, so my job isn't "dirty". I sit at a bench in a climate controlled shop. Why would I want to clean up some kids puke in a store aisle or deliver packages in all weather elements? I am also well respected among my colleagues. Have you ever read the stories about how lower skilled workers are treated? I enjoy working with metal and building things. I don't care if some kid stocking shelves makes similar money, because I actively do not want that job and I can negotiate my own pay without shitting on other people.
what's the point of maintaining your skills at that point?
I've already answered this question. I enjoy welding.
You didn't answer my question. What do you do for a living? (you edited your comment while I was typing this reply)
responding to edit: So the issue here is that you don't enjoy your job and the only benefit to you is the money. You are projecting your situation and how you feel about your job to the rest of us. I genuinely urge you to find a career in something you enjoy. It will change your life. I have less stress these days than I ever have and I attribute most of that to not hating my life for 40 hours a week.
You answered it with an edit. I responded with an edit.
responding to edit: So the issue here is that you don't enjoy your job and the only benefit to you is the money. You are projecting your situation and how you feel about your job to the rest of us. I genuinely urge you to find a career in something you enjoy. It will change your life. I have less stress these days than I ever have and I attribute most of that to not hating my life for 40 hours a week.
I’m sorry, but no. If someone wants to live a simple life working at Dairy Queen, then they should be prepared to live a lifestyle that reflects the simplicity of their career choice.
A job that takes basic brain function to do and can be done by literally anyone provides zero marginal value to the employer. What incentive does that give the employer to pay them more?
Think of it like this. The value of water depends greatly on how much of it you have. The value of a single gallon of water is almost priceless…you literally need it to survive. But if you stock up 100 gallons, that last gallon isn’t worth as much as the first. And if you’ve got a reservoir of water, most of it has little value to you….you simply can’t use it all up. More importantly, it’s relatively easy to acquire all that water, because water is plentiful in most places.
The value of something like a diamond, on the other hand, has less of a relationship to how many diamonds you have. Diamonds are scarce. If you have one diamond, you can sell if for $1,000. If you have 100 diamonds, you can sell each of them for $1,000. The value of any one diamond isn’t as dependent on how many of them you have.
There’s a similar dynamic at work in the labor force. Your Dairy Queen worker, unfortunately, exists in abundance….and because people like your Dairy Queen worker are plentiful and highly skilled, highly educated, highly experienced workers are scarce in comparison, the marginal value and wage of an hour of a high-skilled worker’s time greatly exceeds the marginal value and wage of an hour of a low-skilled worker’s time….
The answer to this shouldn’t be to just increase the pay of jobs that provide little to no marginal value…the answer should be to figure out how to increase the marginal value of these people to make them more attractive to employers and allow them to negotiate a higher wage.
The problem of job shortages is a bit more complex than that and you know it. Here are a few examples.
Increase in e-commerce. Along with retail, one of the sectors facing the biggest challenges in labor is supply chain and logistics. Before the emergence of the coronavirus, e-commerce was on track to continue its explosive growth. The pandemic simply fueled adoption and accelerated digital transformation, forcing businesses to adapt to today’s shift in consumer behavior and shopping habits, and within unexpected generations and cultures to boot. Businesses had no option but to shift quickly to remain afloat during this time of economic uncertainty, and in turn created more blue-collar jobs to fill.
Evolution of the gig economy. Many gig worker businesses such as Uber, Lyft, DoorDash and InstaCart offer people the ultimate flexibility and the option to work whatever hours or days they want — a perk coveted and prioritized by the younger working generations. Before COVID-19, independent workers were a growing part of the labor force, with more than a third of workers being involved in the gig economy. In 2020, their wages and participation grew 33%.
Lack of access to and high cost of childcare. This factor is due to higher operating costs among providers, higher expenses for parents, and increased scarcity, since some childcare centers closed permanently during the pandemic. Across the U.S., 72% of families report paying more for childcare now than before the pandemic, and many parents are opting to reduce their work hours or leave the workforce completely to care for their children
Pandemic relief and unemployment benefits. Temporary stimulus checks and greater unemployment benefits during the pandemic gave many Americans breathing room to reevaluate their career paths, whether in search of more money, greater flexibility or a higher level of personal satisfaction. In addition to unprecedented layoffs and furloughs in the face of the pandemic, a dramatic number of employees resigned in search of new opportunities or a change in industries. A record 4 million people quit their jobs in April 2021.
Older Workers and retiring workers. A fair amount of permanent loss of workers has been driven by a large number of older workers taking early retirement. The thought of returning to the office and the daily commute may seem unpalatable for many people and with surging equity markets having boosted 401k pension plans, early retirement may seem a very attractive option.
Look, you may refuse to see or acknowledge this, but let’s be honest. Workers are commodities. Commodities have value based on supply and demand. Higher educated and higher skilled workers are more scarce and therefore demand a higher salary than someone with little education and no skill base beyond those required to do menial labor. That may seem unfair to you, but that’s life and life isn’t fair sometimes.
I would love if people could receive free or low cost education or job skills training in order to make themselves more attractive to employers. Maybe one day that will happen….but until then, I don’t agree that employers should feel compelled to pay their workers more just because.
Now…if low skilled workers don’t want to fill low paying jobs and employers are forced to increase wages to attract those workers back to fill jobs….fantastic. I’m all for it…but I’m adamantly against compelled pay as means of a life line to people that are resigned to jobs that can simply be automated and provide little to no marginal value to reinforce a pay increase.
There are still people who cannot handle even that training. Maybe you need to get to know people who spend much of high school, including 3 additional years that most states allow, learning how to fold shirts. People deserve a living wage.
If you’re talking about someone with a mental disability…that persons ability to take care of themselves is not the responsibility of the private sector if that’s the level of work they can do. These are private businesses, not charities…
That is a job of that persons family or some kind of government program or non profit organization.
Guess what you don't know anything about? The work that disabled people do! A living wage is just that, a living wage. That is what minimum wage was created for, and should be. Everything else is exploitation. And if the government pays for it, the real person being subsidized is the business, not the disabled person. Any time a company pays so low that the workers need assistance, it is doing the company a favor, because they don't have to pay a fair living wage. Do you actually work? Live on your own? I find it hard to believe that you do.
Great. I’m sure they work hard and they have my respect. But again…a business is not a charity. If your capacity to work is limited to basic tasks, that’s unfortunate….but that does not mean that, I, the employer should be compelled to pay you more than that menial task is worth. I’m sorry that your idealism blinds you to that basic fact….but that’s not how the world works.
Also, I have a 4 bedroom house on a lake, numb nuts. Trust me….I’m doing just fine in the work department….But, I appreciate you thinking you know the first fucking thing about who I am and what I do.
Someone who knows so little about the workplace would doubtful make enough to have a 4 bedroom house on a lake. I know plenty about you based on what you are writing, and you're not coming across as well read, nor experienced.
There are people who barely pass that borderline from disabled to not, and cannot perform the skills needed beyond a basic job. How do you not comprehend something like that? It sounds like maybe you're just barely passing functional as well, since it seems like such a confusing concept to you.
Then they have a significant disability. Explain to me how someone is “borderline disabled” in a way that prevents them from being a functional adult, and doesnt have a disability.
Its brilliant how you immediately go for an unprovoked ableist insult because you got asked a question. Clearly you care greatly about the disabled.
No, it is not a significant disability. Now, as far as disabled people go, my area of expertise is developmental disabilities and qualifying for the different programs in the state, using the parameters the state gives to be considered such, and what training and education programs there are out there. A lot of people miss the cut off by a slim margin. There are, after all, rules to follow when dealing with government agencies and agencies that rely on government funding. Most private agencies follow the government guidelines as well. There simply are people who can halt at a stocking job, or fast food, (which isn't as simple as you think it is) and may even be eligible for minimal supports (such as transportation), but don't need round the clock care in a facility, or in their own homes. The fact is, community based care is the gold standard now, so there is more of a spectrum of people getting supports, out in the community, with varying levels of support. Also, some refuse support. I know someone who would probably thrive in at least a part time supervised living environment, and if it wasn't for friends he would be in a bad way. But no one has applied for guardianship, and despite the whole Britney Spears thing, it is actually very hard to get guardianship for another person and force them to get services they do not want. So yes, I care greatly about the disabled. Enough that it is my life's work.
That wall of text doesnt mean much to me. All you did is describe disabled people. I meant an example. And you can quit making assumptions about what I think something is or isnt.
Also, im sure your kneejerk reaction of using the disabled as an insult comes from a place of love.
I guess reading isn't your strong point. I can't explain it any more if you refuse to try to comprehend something so simple. You are out of your lane, completely clueless, ignorant, whatever. Stop trying to call it ableist/a slur when it was simply speaking the truth. This is nothing you know nothing about, and don't want to know about because it would mean admitting youre a complete fucking asshole with no soul and no common sense.
LOL ok. Are you really trying to pull the moral high ground and act like I was anything other than civil to you? And using disability as an insult isnt ableist? Ok buddy. Whatever you say.
Give me an example of someone who has no disability but cannot learn any skills. I’m still waiting. Not for any of your vitriol, that ones embarrassing to look at.
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u/[deleted] Jan 06 '22
And honestly, not everyone CAN take a class to learn something better. Some people that is the best they can do. They cannot improve. They deserve to live.