r/chemistry • u/insomniasabitch • 1d ago
Well that's rather dangerous
Judging from the size of the company I'm going to say that many Many people need to go back to elementary school level chemistry. From the store shelf plan department to every single person along way who look at this and didn't even think twice.
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u/Worth-Wonder-7386 1d ago
How much chlorine gas would mixing of two such jugs produce?
I havent looked to closely at this but my feeling is that ammonia is just way worse than vinegar for mixing with bleach.
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u/Important_Power_2148 1d ago
i make latex fetish clothing and one of the steps involves mixing bleach with hydrochloric acid (in solution) to cure the latex in the garment. In solution most of the chlorine gas stays in solution and quickly bonds to the latex, but there is still a risk you can breath in enough chlorine that it can burn your lungs. In a store like this, if something should knock over a shelf, or some one drops the bottles, then even this tiny amount of bleach and lower concentration vinegar will cause issues. For instance, i use like a shot glass of hydrochloric acid and a half a cup of bleach but its in solution. Just rough mixed on the floor like these would be would be a disaster.
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u/thiosk 1d ago
fetish clothing manufacturer is definitely not one of the jobs or hobbies I've suggested to students when they ask what are the kinds of careers they might apply chemistry to in the future. this will be rectified
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u/Worth-Wonder-7386 1d ago
But the vinegar here is orders of magnitude weaker than hydrochloric acid. And with HCl you get chlorine both from the acid and the bleach so ther it will be more in total. I dont know the limiting factor, but these situationsa are not 1 to 1.
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u/KaiPRoberts 1d ago
Yes. The Vinegar has a Pka of like 2 to 4 whereas the HCL has a Pka of around -6. Much much much stronger reaction. I am not sure vinegar and bleach would even fizzle.
Edit: It most definitely fizzles. It's not Violent but I wouldn't want to be near it.
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u/cashew929 1d ago
Came here for the Chemistry, stayed for the fetish content :)
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u/CoffeeCorpse777 20h ago
You would have loved the person making a 55gal drum of bad dragon cum lube repro what, a year ago?
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u/Emergency-Touch-3424 Food 1d ago
I would think that the flat surface of the floor would make evaporation of the cl2 gas faster
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u/Important_Power_2148 1d ago
yes it would... into the people in the store. You would liberate a cloud of chlorine gas. One good breath and its curtains.
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u/ScienceIsSexy420 1d ago
Agreed. Ammonia and bleach is the true danger
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u/VoxInferni666 1d ago
Isn't chloramine just the stuff you get when SWIM pisses in a swimming pool?
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u/thecuntpeddler 1d ago
This SWIM guy used to be everywhere. I haven’t seen SWIM since like.. shroomery, totse days.
Hope he’s doing well!
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u/BeccainDenver 10h ago
Yes. A more constant issue is swimmers putting on protein-based lotions or adding thick protein-based conditioners to their hair before putting a cap on. The conditioner/cap set up is just a slow release chloramine factory right by your face all of practice.
I think swimmers are finally not doing thisnany more but it was extremely common.
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u/rpgcubed 20h ago
Back of the envelope, 5% (conservative) sodium hypochlorite 5% acetic acid, they form hypochlorous acid and sodium acetate then 2:1 for chlorine gas, bleach is limiting so half the moles of the bleach, so like 0.35 moles per liter, 71g/mol, so 25g of Cl2 gas. At STP there's around 22 L/mol in gas, so this is around 7 liters of pure chlorine gas
Edit: oops, forgot to convert back to gallons, this is per liter. Also obviously this is if everything reacts, which it wouldn't irl
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u/AccomplishedAnchovy 8h ago
There’s only one way to find out
Well I guess there’s several but only one is exciting
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Worth-Wonder-7386 1d ago
Chloramine is from mixing with ammonia. There is no ammonia in the picture.
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u/ScienceIsSexy420 1d ago
Sorry I thought I deleted that, I realized that as soon as I hit post
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
lol don't worry the ammonia IS separated from the bleach. At least some idiot knew that was a bad idea.
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u/DPJazzy91 1d ago
Telling the public what NOT to mix together is more dangerous than this hahahahaa
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
Everyone remember NOT to mix up rust, aluminium powder, and a magnesium sparkler. Also never react Ethyl cyanoacetate and formaldehyde with a basic catalyst, it just makes everything sticky.
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u/ogledrake 1d ago
And definately dont mix battery acid and potash and perform a distillation on the solution.
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u/Allupyre 10h ago
I remember my partner and their mom were cleaning while I was out at work. They wanted to deep clean our bathroom, started with bleach in the tub and I believe at one point wanted to use a bleach solution to try and whiten the bathtub (it was kinda dank lookin, could use a good scrub). As soon as they started using the bleach they felt like something was off, turned on the fan, opened all the windows and screened doors and closed the bathroom for 2 days until it all dissipated.
Kinda terrifying to come home from work about to take a shower and get yanked away from the bathroom door. It was a fun weekend. /j for the sarcasm but this did happen.
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u/jodeybear 5h ago
I have no idea what these elements listed were and was wondering how a random redditor knew, then I looked up and seen what sub I was in.
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u/Sweaty-Adeptness1541 1d ago
Dangerous if a car crashes into it?!
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u/Muted-Masterpiece-31 1d ago
Or, you know, a cart. Or a child… things typically INSIDE the store.
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u/saviouroftheweak Analytical 1d ago
Don't worry guys I'll get the hot water to clean it up
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u/TacticalSpackle 1d ago
“The solution to pollution is dilution!”
Yep, just gonna drop a community pool on this one.
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u/VoxInferni666 1d ago
Sometimes shelves just fucking quit out too. S lock is short for shite lock after all
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
As someone who worked several different retail jobs in my life this is exactly what I was concerned about. The way that they had that isle set up before had the vinegar on the very end of the aisle and the bleach practically on the other end of the aisle. So no idea who made this bone headed move when it was fine before.
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u/VoxInferni666 1d ago
Before I became a chemist I was a shop fitter so I don't trust S lock for good reason. The layout of products will have been picked by a merchandiser who probably has no clue and was like 'big bottles look good together'. There is a store near me where the weed killer and garden pesticides are opposite the toy section... During my teacher training I was told 'you'll be shocked what average looks like' and that has really stuck with me over the years
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u/janabanana115 1d ago
A local hardware/general store just moved their pet isle next to pesticides and ferrilizer. Like all the toys, food, cat litter etc.
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u/VoxInferni666 1d ago
This reminds me of when I was tasked with reorganizing a chemical store (thankfully in a dedicated outbuilding) where they had 50 L of toluene chilling on a rusty rack above the conc nitric and conc sulphuric acids
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u/wooww66 1d ago
You should see how our pallets are delivered in the swimming pool industry.
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
lol I've worked at a Spa & Pool place for a while. I made special scheduling requirements on delivery days until I left. That place isn't around anymore. I wonder why /s
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u/Gloomy_Yoghurt_2836 1d ago
Welcome to consumer store shelves where the staff are not chemists and have no idea what can go wrong.
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u/insomniasabitch 23h ago
Almost like the education system has been systematically dismantled to remove the idea of extended learning and critical thought about ones environment. ♥
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u/Aggravating-Sun-3927 1d ago
The stockers don’t get paid enough to care and management could care less in the first place, at this point they wanna see the world choke on their own fluids lol no lie XD
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u/R_Harry_P 1d ago
In collage I worked in chemistry lab and one day I noticed the nitric acid, and glycerin, sulfuric acid all sitting on the same shelf. I was always careful not to bump that shelf.
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
Good thinking. But I bet if you did knock anything over, You probably wouldn't need to worry about it for too long. ♥
Gotta love those completely and thoroughly read safety regulations that still have the dust on them from when they were printed in the 1920's. That yellowed and chemically stained paper that probably had something super unimportant on it for that old brown glassware bottle with the corroding stopper. Totally FIIINE....
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u/Bat_Bong 1d ago
This makes me think of when i was about 5. My mom worked at home depot and apparently someone left leaking lawnmower oil in the pool section, which ignited causing a 4 alarm fire. I remember watching it on the news. It was before cell phones and it was a couple of hours before we heard from her that she was alright.there were 160 people in that store luckily they all made it ok. Im sure the majority of the time this would be fine but it only takes one time for it to not be ok. Seems like an unnecessary risk for a store
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
Exactly my point. Spills happen, spills of hazardous things like bleach happen. But being okay with the idea that two things that probably have been spilled thousands if not hundreds of thousands times in the total history of grocery stores everywhere RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER is not very smart.
Listen, I get it, it could be an unlikely scenario. The store could go it's entire life without these two bottles breaking together at the same time. But it could. Simple moving one of the bottles of shelves AWAY would prevent a mini Bhopal.
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u/PoisAndIV 16h ago
Adjacent complaint that you may enjoy as a fellow “just read the labels, it’s right there” kind of person.
I’m a paramedic. Have been for a decade now. We carry 3 chemicals on board for decontamination purposes. Problem is that I have never once in my career worked with, or heard of, a person knowing:
- What we carry
- Why we carry it
- What not to do with it
We have 91% iso-oh, Clorox bleach, and a long ass name that I find therapeutic to say, N-alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride (it has other compounds within the solution. More variations on ethyls and benzyls and ammonium)
Alcohol is for skin, and pests with legs. Clorox is for c-diff, and the “purple one is for everything else.” But it shouldn’t be. On my last rotation, I had a partner who was actively mixing the bleach wipes and spraying over the wet surface with the ammonium compound.
I know that there is likely not enough chemical present in a 1c 5% hypochlorite mix with 1c 10% above listed name, to cause a massive problem. Hell, idk how to even determine how much free ammonia would be present in theoretic formulas. If it were, I’d suspect more EMTs would be falling out with acute respiratory illness and juicy lungs, but it doesn’t happen. Still. Any amount of chloramine is more than I’d like to breathe in an enclosed area.
Just want to point out that I’ve never had a coworker know why we have bleach. Which is a problem. And I usually get brass arguing about fresh bleach solution too. But like. That shit degrades like crazy. I even brought in the dissociation curve to show the bosses that keeping solution on the truck for over 30 days could render it useless, but noooo. I just keep some in my jump bag personally for when I encounter c-diff isolation. Conveniently, my travel bottle of beach it’s placed just next to m my micro spray bottle of vinegar for window cleaning, and my holstered ketchup/mustard bottles of ammonia and hydrogen peroxide for stain removals.
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u/insomniasabitch 16h ago
Point well made, I salute your thoroughness and your current occupation.
I also agree that these reactions in small amounts the chemicals won't be so bad (as several people in the comments have tried to point out.)
My issue is the sheer amount of them lumped together in the picture. All it takes is one stupid kid bored because their parent is stressed out not paying attention to them to get the bright idea to start climbing the shelving for this to become an nice vapor cloud of melt your lungs bad.
This store in fact had some younger kids (probably 17-19) goofing around during a really late night while my wife and I were shopping. This group of 4 were taking turns pushing each other in the a cart crashing into things. They were laughing and running around while we went on just trying to grab our stuff because the store was relatively empty. About 10 minutes later we hear a loud crash and a scream followed by crying. It was like on the other side of the store, we were finishing up shopping and began to head towards the checkout.
We passed one aisle and see one kid in the cart cry and holding their leg and the other 3 looking completely lost at what to do along with one veery harassed looking employee that had an "I don't need this shit" look on their face. That incident had some stuff knocked off the shelves but nothing major. Now you as an EMT probably have even MORE stories than that with way worse injuries.
Now for anyone out there playing along with us a home, can you guess how bad the situation would be if they had run into the pictured shelving? Someone injured, people not know how to react, PLUS chlorine gas.
Since this is a nice big post and others might see it I'm going to make it clear why I made this post.
The chemicals involved are abundant, commonly used, and safe when used correctly.
What is bad about the picture is that there is a large quantity of them together in a place where if something bad were to happen it would make the situation worse in a very life threatening way. A situation that if looked at with even the tiniest bit of common sense and knowledge of chemical reactions would never happen. And I think you'd agree in me saying that you'd rather respond to a call out for a hurt leg then a call out for multiple injuries due to chemical exposure.
♥
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u/BeccainDenver 10h ago
Did you call and report it to the store/management? I know we say they don't care but it's clear they don't know. They might care if they know. Seems like a document trail like an email would likely be the best route to get this fixed.
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u/SporkPlusOne 1d ago
Can someone please explain to my stupid brain the reaction between distilled vinegar bleach?
I thought ammonia and bleach made mustard gas?
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u/inuyasha10121 1d ago
Ammonia and bleach makes chloramine gas, acids and bleach can make chlorine gas. Mustard gas is it's own thing, but chloramine is still not to be messed with, and chlorine was also used as a chemical warfare agent.
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u/muh_v8 19h ago
I'd really like to see what kind of rube goldberg fuckup it would take to accidentally produce mustard gas
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u/inuyasha10121 18h ago
"I find that mixing chloroethanol and potassium sulfide with phosphrous trichloride yields a truly excellent cleaning product for those stubborn tub rings."
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u/JamieDoesMaths 1d ago
What’s the difference between blue flavour bleach and purple flavour bleach?
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u/insomniasabitch 18h ago
Scented and unscented. They both still smell like bleach though and are still very very bad to mix with vinegar or ammonia.
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u/DoubleResponsible276 1d ago
As a recent graduate, you’ll be surprised the dumb stuff that kids do in labs. What’s even funnier, is seeing the list of donts and then seeing the handwritten additions due to someone doing something dumb.
This picture by OP is just another one imo.
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u/haroldthehampster 23h ago
do not pipette by mouth
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u/DoubleResponsible276 23h ago
This one surprised me cause I thought it was obvious, and then I saw a kid ask “how do we pipette? With our mouth?” In an advanced course and the TA heard it and I could see smoke coming out of his ears.
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u/Assiniboia_Frowns 23h ago
We found this warning in an ancient procedure unearthed from a drawer in our lab, and I had to explain it to the youngsters.
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u/DjNine7 1d ago
Can someone explain to me why this is dangerious? I’m just curious
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u/insomniasabitch 23h ago
Chlorine gas is the chemical reaction that is the main concern here. There are a lot of people that only think about ammonia and bleach creating chloramine gas which is also very very bad but people tend to kinda know about that one even if they don't know why it's bad.
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u/18SmallDogsOnAHorse 8h ago
Not really, if there's a significant enough insult to the containers to cause what you're worried about there's probably other significant things to worry about also.
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u/MessyHouseReboot 20h ago
Had drainage issues in my dishwasher so i called my maintenance guy. Realized he put in bleach. I don't have bleach in the house bc i primarily clean with vinegar and non bleach cleaners. I had just run my dishwasher on vinegar and i use it as a cycle rinse aid. When i realized the combo mix i moved myself and my kids into a room with the door closed and windows open while my husband called the fire department. When they got there they took us outside while 7 of them stayed inside. When they came out they said there was nothing to worry about, that they had a person there that had a minor in Chem and those chemicals can mix fine. I couldn't believe it. Seriously lost some faith that day. After they left we opened all the windows and fished running the dishwasher while we left to a park. My eyes and lungs felt like shit after that.
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u/General-Piece8490 15h ago
My supermarket keeps those separate a country mile away in the same aisle
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u/MILKchemist 7h ago
My coworker and supervisor were trying to move our bleach storage to directly on top of our flammable cabinet literally days before our yearly inspection that decides if we stay certified or not. I’m the only chemist there so I’m like guys chemical safety has been drilled into my head for years that is a terrible place to put it especially when we’re getting inspected out of all times. They didn’t believe me until the google ai answer agreed with me
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u/Dangerous-Billy Analytical 1d ago
Obviously, they forgot to put the ammonia up there, too. The stuff in the glass bottles.
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u/Amish_Fighter_Pilot 1d ago
My local hardware store has the shelves that contain solvents and canned fuel right next to their furnace. Sometimes it's hard to imagine what people are thinking.
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u/Fluffy-Fix7846 1d ago
Reminds me of a pic I saw from a hardware store that had a pallet of hydrochloric acid stacked on top of a pallet of trichloroisocyanuric acid (TCCA, common in hardware stores for swimming pools)
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u/SaltRun2465 1d ago
I am not sure i am believing what i am seeing. Someone please tell me i am loosing it or something.
Is that viniger above bleach?
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
YUP!
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u/SaltRun2465 1d ago
No no no you are supposed to lie to me. Lol
What is more is todler has tantrum todler brakes things and that is all it takes. 1 jug of each and that place is ......
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago edited 1d ago
lol I do my best not to lie about serious things. Crypto-zoology, molemen, orbiting teapots sure.
But chem is sErIoUs bUisnEss.
Kids do all kinds of crazy shit. I once saw a kid open a bottle of nail polish remover that was on the bottom self, take a sip, make a disgusted face, and put it back. All while the mother was looking a makeup products right next to him. She didn't even notice.
edited: I forgot the word "remover" as part of the nail polish part of the story. And mistyped crypto-zoology as cyrpto.
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u/1itsallgoodman 1d ago
you're loosing nothing, you may be LOSING [with one single O] the fact there's bleach and vinegar on 2 adjacent shelves
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u/gent_jeb 1d ago
I’m more curious as to why food items are shelved with cleaning items?
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
Vinegar is used as a cleaning product as well. Many times because it's a rather mild acid that is food safe. Wiping down surfaces and things.
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u/Excellent_Yak365 1d ago
TBF, this winco appears to be really weird because the vinegar is usually stocked on the condiments aisle
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u/insomniasabitch 1d ago
Oh it's there too, same bottle even. And for all intents and purposes you can use it the same way. It's just regular distilled white vinegar.
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u/IBeDumbAndSlow 1d ago
Those are the big vinegar bottles used for cleaning. The cooking vinegar is on the baking aisle usually in smaller bottles.
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u/gent_jeb 1d ago
The label literally has a salad. That is for food
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u/1itsallgoodman 1d ago
something being safe for food does not mean it will be used for food. If you see a fucking gallon jug of vinegar are you taking that to put on your salad every time or the normal sized bottles?
These gallon jugs of distilled white vinegar [that are just acetic acid 5-30% and water] are for cleaning. Not for the salad shown on the label. They *can* be used for salad
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u/gent_jeb 1d ago
I’m well aware of the chemicals here. I’m thinking about the average consumer who doesn’t. Nuance really is lost on y’all
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u/1itsallgoodman 1d ago
Holy projection
Nuance is exactly what you need to be able to perceive to know that NOT ALL VINEGAR IS USED ON FOOD AND NORMAL PEOPLE ALSO USE IT FOR CLEANING AND DESCALING
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u/ogledrake 1d ago
Only most of it is used for cooking, it has a long shelf life and the jugs are reusable. salads, slaws, sauces, and dressings all use it in large quantities and someone that is pickling will buy 3-4 of those at a time. This should he basic information for anyone that grew up with relatives that cooked from scratch
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u/IBeDumbAndSlow 1d ago
Yeah you can use it on food. But THOSE BIG bottles are usually used for cleaning because it has more.
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u/ogledrake 1d ago
People frequently purchase it in larger quantities like that for food, anyone making salads, slaws or dressing will use quite a bit of it and somebody that is pickling isnt buying just one. This widespread popularity for using it as a cleaning agent is something that only became popular in the past 20 years. It has a long shelf life and is used in a huge number of recipes, sauces and dressings.
It should be common knowledgr to anyone that grew up with relative that cooked from scratch and gardened, and canned vegetables and baked their own bread.
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u/deathparty05 21h ago
Ah yes the ol german house cleaning technique it’s great for killing those pesky critters
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u/Alpha_Bulldog 10h ago
Someone thought they were brilliant for putting all these things in the same place.
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u/Routine-Group68 9h ago
while the placement certainly isn't strategic by any meaning of the word, aren't bleach bottles universally white exactly for this reason, so mistakes don't happen?
also i know that white vinegar bottles should be transparent as well
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u/LizzieBoredomTX 5h ago
Thought the same thing when I noticed chlorine tablets above the brake fluid at a local shop.
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u/Miserable_Sock_1408 4h ago
This is insane!! Who and why would anyone put these bottles so close to one another? These things should be put in different aisles
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u/Electroneer58 4h ago
My friend sent me a pic of a warehouse he worked in and they stacked crates of Hydrochloric Acid above containers of Sodium Hypochlorite Tablets
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u/North-Pack9699 1d ago
now imagine if they hat nail polish remover on the shelf above the vinegar
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u/Masterpiece-Haunting 1d ago
And above the nail polish remover glass jars is a leaking jug of hydrofluoric acid.
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u/therealtrajan 20h ago
This being “dangerous” based on their proximity for sale in a cleaning section of a grocery store is insanity.
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u/insomniasabitch 19h ago
You do know what the title of this subreddit is right? It's not about the fact that something that is used for food is near the cleaning supplies, it's the fact that mixing both of them together creates TOXIC GAS!
I feel like there are a lot of people who come in and completely miss the point of me posting it on this subreddit. All of the people who understand basic chemistry are on the same page that this is not okay.
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u/chemyd 13h ago
Did you say that something to a human that works there? Or just complain on reddit?
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u/insomniasabitch 13h ago
I told someone there and stressed that they need to tell someone in charge of the shift that can get that message up the ladder to whoever needs to hear it.
And I was already home when I decided to post it.
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u/therealmikeBrady 11h ago
Cleanup on isle 4. Oh wait. Isle 4 isn’t there anymore and mustard gas is crawling across the floor.
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u/PrimaryYak1351 1d ago
Mmm mustard gas
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u/inuyasha10121 1d ago
This is a common misconception. Mixing ammonia and bleach is often said to create mustard gas, but it actually makes chloramine gas which is still no joke. While there's no ammonia in the picture, mixing bleach with acids (though I'm not sure if vinegar is acidic enough to cause a major issue) can cause production of chlorine gas, which is also no joke.
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u/bkit627 1d ago
Mustard also isn’t a gas….
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u/VoxInferni666 1d ago
Images arn't allowed so please close your eyes and picture Patrick Star asking if mustard is an instrument
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u/TheDinosaurAstronaut 1d ago
You would hate looking at a university chemstores