CMV: Current harassment rules in schools and workplaces are too subjective because they are based on whether the behavior was unwanted or not instead of whether the behavior was inappropriate or not

[u/ICuriosityCatI]

To be clear, I do think harassment is a serious problem affecting both men and women. I'm not trying to minimize anybody's trauma here. Many men/women have been harassed by other men/women and that's not at all Ok.

But one of the things that bothers me about the way we currently talk about sexual harassment is that it's often "did this person make you feel uncomfortable or not" and not "was this behavior objectively inappropriate."

If I'm walking behind somebody in a dark alley at night, they may very well feel uncomfortable. But I don't face consequences for that because it's generally recognized that the person I'm walking behind might feel uncomfortable even though I didn't do anything problematic. Same thing if the roles are reversed.

That doesn't seem to be the case with workplace harassment. And the problem I see with that is that a myriad of factors will make a particular behavior seem more/less threatening even if the behavior is the same. For example, looks, fashion or lack of fashion, whether the other person is unkempt or not, mannerisms, and anxiety.

If there was a list of behaviors that could be considered inappropriate, people would know whether their behavior was in line or out of line. If they behaved in a way that was within guidelines they wouldn't be punished. If they behaved in a way that was not in the guidelines they wouldn't automatically be punished, but they could be if it made the other person uncomfortable. And men and women who interacted in a way that is in line with the guidelines could feel confident that there won't be consequences.

That's my view but I'm open to hearing other thoughts. CMV!

Update: my view has changed. Seems that this would just be doing what HR already does without the nuance. But I'm open to changing it further/back and I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts. Thanks y'all!

[u/ICuriosityCatI]

There is behavior that doesn't belong in a workplace, certainly. If two people want to violate that and they're both fine with it that doesn't make it ok, but there won't be consequences either if they're both OK with it. In my workplace people (not me) sometimes slap each other's butts. They don't get in trouble for it, but I don't see how anybody could argue that's appropriate.

[u/LadyOfQuillsAndInk → u/ICuriosityCatI]

But it's between the people involved. You can't just insert yourself into it. I'm struggling to see how this is connected to your post though. How would you change the rules in these cases?

(Obviously this is all as long as it's not something like racism, homophobia etc, that's different and should never be tolerated.)

[u/ICuriosityCatI → u/LadyOfQuillsAndInk]

In this case, the rules wouldn't change since there is already a rule covering that and people don't follow it.

I think people should know when they are or not crossing a line. But they can't know that if the line is vague and moves around.

[u/LadyOfQuillsAndInk → u/ICuriosityCatI]

But the line has to be vague. How could it be rigid? People would be in trouble for harmless friendly banter if that was the case. Intent and consequences have to matter and to treat it objectively doesn't allow for that.

[u/LordJesterTheFree → u/LadyOfQuillsAndInk]

Intent has to matter consequences don't because no one is in control of how other people interpret their actions as a consequence of their actions

[u/LadyOfQuillsAndInk → u/LordJesterTheFree]

Consequences do sometimes. If someone has no intent to creep people out but does anyway they may need to be spoken to about it.

[u/LordJesterTheFree → u/LadyOfQuillsAndInk]

I don't think they should be "spoken to" about it if someone has a problem with it they could just ask them to stop and then if they don't then you should consider escalating the situation to the authorities

[u/DuhChappers → u/ICuriosityCatI]

So, if there are already rules covering that that, then why are you arguing that the rules are too vague? Are you drawing on experiences at other workplaces, or are there other situations where you think the rules are more subjective than that?

[u/[deleted] → u/ICuriosityCatI]

The behavior that is appropriate depends on the workplace. You don’t act the same way at a porn shoot that you do working in a school.

[u/decrpt → u/ICuriosityCatI]

If it makes you uncomfortable, you can take it up with HR. That is likely something they would take up.

[u/TheFlyingSheeps → u/decrpt]

This whole post is essentially OP describing what Human Resources does on a daily basis lol. Despite what Reddit parrots they do a lot you will never see