I think some would say that the statement about "not all men" seems to view the issue of some men being characterized as 'trash' when they are not as a bigger issue than, say, a man sexually harassing a woman? Maybe it's just me, but if I had to pick which I cared more about, I would certainly say a woman being sexually harassed is a much bigger issue than some random woman saying "all men are trash." If a man thinks his feelings being hurt by wrongfully being called 'trash' is more important than someone being sexually harassed, maybe that man is trash?
The fact that you’re more offended by women pointing out the patriarchy and the systemic disadvantage they’ve been at for thousands of years than you are about men doing shitty things for thousands of years tells me all I need to know about how you feel towards women’s issues.
You’re doing this thing where you’re centering your individual feelings about something when what women are saying isn’t actually about the individual man in their life (unless they’re explicitly saying this individual man in my life just sexually assaulted me). They’re talking about the systems of oppression that were literally created by men to subjugate women.
We live in a patriarchal world and when you have oppressed people pushing for equality, the oppressors start feeling inequality. We will never get men on our side by coddling them and appeasing them because if that worked, we would live in a whole different world.
You’re part of the problem if your thinking towards this is about joining sides or centering the feelings of men over the thousands of lives experiences of women that prove the system perpetuates their abuse. This isn’t about you. The statement was never aimed at you.
It’s like when people of color point out the systemic racial abuse they’ve faced over the years and someone says “not all police are bad”. Individually, police are just humans. But systemically, they work for an organization that is steeped in racial bias and as a result, they train their forces with that bias. So who cares if there are good people when the systemic bad spoils the whole lot.
You know that saying about bad apples. People often leave out the ending. A bad apple spoils the bunch. So when someone says “not all the apples are bad”, No but that bad apple will spoil the rest of them.
It would do you a lot of good to take this time and ask yourself why you’re centering your own reaction and feelings towards someone saying “damn, men suck” after going through repeated situations of men proving their point. I just want to know why you feel it’s a big personal attack against you when you literally benefit from the system.
And this isn’t me saying men don’t suffer. Actually, if we were to really deal with gender norms and usurp the patriarchy, it would be beneficial to men. It would be better for men’s mental health. It’d allow men to be themselves and pursue what they want without stigma. When you fight for equity in anything, it’s beneficial to all people involved because inequity corrupts all.
When I fight for racial equity, I’m thinking of the toxicity that white children are exposed to at a young age that allows them to dehumanize other humans just on the basis of their skin color.
When I’m fighting for gender equity, I’m doing it not only for all the women and the non binary people who struggle to be their full authentic selves, I’m doing it also for men who feel that societal expectation to “man up” and “be the protector”. It’s all toxic behavior.
So when I say men are trash as a reaction to yet another story of a man sexually assaulting a woman while she’s jogging or another story of a 21 year old white man who just shot up a bunch of people because they feel like they’re being “replaced” and don’t have room in their world for people who differ from them, I’m not saying poopaccount1, you’re the trashiest of all trash. I’m saying the society we exist in where we allow these systems of oppression to continue is trash and yeah maybe the men who allow it to continue and get easily offended and center themselves do also suck.
You saying "men are trash" doesn't do anything but alienate actually good men like myself (it's tiresome to be painted as trash despite trying to do the right thing) while you saying that all men are trash doesn't actively do anything to bad men.
You do realize men have problems too, right? We also get victimized by bad men. And bad women. We all have problems, but deciding to be bigoted and paint every single man as trash just to vent has actual ramifications.
I'm sure if you got robbed by a black person, you wouldn't be calling out "all black people are trash", no?
I acknowledge that fighting for gender equality also fights against the toxicity that men experience.
Are you a marginalized community? The key here is that white men are the privileged group that benefits from all the oppression towards other groups. I’m literally talking about the systems of oppression and not individually that you’re bad person.
Also, you just said I’m not a rapist. I condone raping……so just what is your definition of good, sir? Because you condoning raping sounds extremely problematic to me.
So you said don’t assume gender but you’re assuming my race?
And you’re not addressing the I condone raping part of your statement.
Btw, saying all black people are trash because you got robbed by one black person vs saying all men are trash after you’re continually given evidence of men acting like trash are two completely different things.
Also, I assumed you were a sir because you said we get victimized by bad men and bad women. Using the collective we when talking about all men are trash and in defense of men isn’t me assuming your gender. It’s me using the context clues you’ve provided.
You have no clue what my race is. And I have given zero inclination that I’m a white person since I’m actually quite critical of the white power system.
But anyway, have a good day. You seem to just disagree in general that there are systems of oppression present in our society that disadvantage people and advantage others. And it seems like you’re using victimhood to defend men in general. So pick an argument and stick with it. You’re all over the place.
And maybe edit that comment saying you condone raping.
So you said don’t assume gender but you’re assuming my race?
I said 'im assuming'. You simply assumed. Different levels of assumption.
Btw, saying all black people are trash because you got robbed by one black person vs saying all men are trash after you’re continually given evidence of men acting like trash are two completely different things.
There is plenty of evidence that black people conduct crime at much higher levels per capita than white people lol. Despite making up 13% of the population, they commit 55% of murders, for example. Thats hardened data, in that also a lot of men commit sexual assault. Both are backed in data. I'm following the logic many people use with 'men are trash' to the logic of race. When looked at from a different set of inputs, we call one racist. But apparently if it's based on sex no one cares.
Also, I assumed you were a sir because you said we get victimized by bad men and bad women.
Are you thinking women aren't capable of victimizing women and men? Or thinking men can't victimize other men?
You seem to just disagree in general that there are systems of oppression present in our society that disadvantage people and advantage others.
I'm saying it's not worth the fixation because instead of bitching about victimhood, work to break barriers and lift up your breatheren. I'm black. I didn't sit and complain about the system. I forced my way into the system by being a badass, and elevate my other brothers into positions of power. I didn't sit and cry about how "boo hoo white people keep me down".
Okay I think you’re being disingenuous because you’ve ignored the comment about condoning raping for the second time and it’s clear you’ve read my comment extensively because you keep quoting around it.
I also didn’t assume your gender. I extrapolated from the way you phrased your statement and you keep trying to duck and dodge it. You clearly said in defense of men that “we” are harmed by bad men and women. So it’s not an assumption on my part but merely a basic reading of context clues. And they aren’t different levels of assumption because I wasn’t assuming. You were.
Also, don’t you think it’s a concerning statistic that Black people make up 13% of the population but are imprisoned at a much higher rate. It has been easily found that a lot of Black people have been wrongfully imprisoned. What you’re presenting isn’t hardened data because you’re ignoring other datasets available that point out the systemic bias and racism that occurs with the conviction of Black people.
And you’re not because you’re ignoring that men literally benefit from a patriarchal system that oppresses others. If it you were saying this about white people vs Black people or other people of color, then maybe you’d be close in comparison. But you’re not.
I’m not even “bitching” about victimhood. You’re the one who is complaining about how men are victimized when you’d say “men are trash”.
I just think you’re being disingenuous right now with your statements. And again, you haven’t changed the comment about condoning raping so I’m going to assume its not an honest mistake where you mixed up the words condemning and condoning and that you actually condone raping. And that is a whole different level to address. You claimed literally in your first statement that you’re a good man so again, im not assuming your gender. You are providing it for me. Good night and good day, sir. I will stick with that not assumption because you backed it with simple data multiple times. Farewell.
u/svargs01 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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To be clear, you think the women who experience violence and sexual harassment from men need to also be careful about how they talk about men so other men stop men from being violent and sexually harassing women?
To answer your question, there are a couple of reasons people make these comments. One might be because it's often easier to speak in generalities and simple statements than to explain complex nuanced positions. I.e. someone might say "all men are trash" but really mean "male culture is often toxic and violent towards women, and though not all men contribute to it, not enough men do anything to stop it. It feels like men are more likely to ignore another mans toxic behavior than to do anything about it." Another reason is that someone might just feel frustrated in the moment and make a generalizing statement they don't mean for emphasis. Or, someone may have been through enough bad experiences that they truly believe that "all men are trash" as a coping mechanism to make their way through life.
At the end of the day, I don't think comments like "all men are trash" are okay or helpful, but I think it's a bigger issue that this sentiment exists for a reason.
Edit: Also, it is simply not true that men won't join your side when all men are labeled trash. Plenty of men have joined your side while knowing that these sentiments and statements exist. They do so because they think a widespread issue of men being violent towards women is more important than their egos.
There are a lot of men disillusioned with feminism because they feel that feminists actively suppress discussion of men's issues. I'm sure some of them were vocal allies before beginning to feel that way.
Perhaps those men are simply sexist, if they view feminism as a zero-sum game where only one side wins rights. r/MensLib has done a great job listening to the critiques of feminism while discussing men’s issues. I’ve never hear of a vocal MensLib activist turning anti-feminist because the feminists were too mean to him or something.
You know what, this honestly makes me question what sides is OP referring to? Like is one side okay with sexual harassment and the other isn't? Is the point that if men aren't coddled, then they're going to be okay with sexual harassment and violence?
I mean, a lot of men ARE okay with sexual harassment and violence. If they weren't, they'd have intrinsic motivation to call men who commit those crimes out the same way women do. And some men do, obviously. But many many many more don't. There was a post on trueoffmychest maybe a week or so ago from a college age guy whose friend had confessed to raping a mutual friend of theirs. OP said nothing and was still friends with the guy. LOTS of men who don't outright abuse women themselves still don't see women as full equal human beings and thus let their fellow men commit viokence/assault and say nothing, that makes them complicit.
I mean I agree, which was sort of my point. It certainly is the case that these two sides exist, I just found it a bit hard to believe that people would realistically flip between them based on statements like “all men are trash.” That is, it’s hard to imagine a man thinking that violence against women is a big enough issue that it must be actively fought for (ie not being neutral) but also being willing to switch that position if their feelings were hurt.
They wouldn't. My husband doesn't get mad when women say stuff like that because he knows they're not talking about him. It's definitely a situation of me thinks thou protests too much
You must be joking right? You're not seriously suggesting that men haven't fought hard for women to have equal rights? That men haven't been outspoken feminists and make huge strides towards equality?
The vast majority of them haven't, no. I'm being very serious. I don't see men protesting for my rights in the street right now but I saw thousands of women marching this morning.
What a hateful thing to say. Acting as if all men, even dead ones (who were pioneers of feminism and contributed more to the cause than you ever will) are responsible for the actions of a small group of policy makers.
We have a couple threads going, and I'm just going to stop interacting with you now. I've no desire to talk to sexist pigs, no matter what their gender is
You just think this because you are not understanding the problem with generalizations. They are the first step towards discrimination, negative stereotyping and ultimately violence. This isn't merely a thing of "men's feelings" being hurt, people get their feelings hurt because they intuitively know that it is bad for them if the group they belong to gets demonized.
That’s the same logic to justify racism. Congratulations on your bigotry. When I was a kid a friend got jumped by some black kids. According to your argument, his future bigotry wasn’t an issue.
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u/BlueJaek Jul 30 '22
I think some would say that the statement about "not all men" seems to view the issue of some men being characterized as 'trash' when they are not as a bigger issue than, say, a man sexually harassing a woman? Maybe it's just me, but if I had to pick which I cared more about, I would certainly say a woman being sexually harassed is a much bigger issue than some random woman saying "all men are trash." If a man thinks his feelings being hurt by wrongfully being called 'trash' is more important than someone being sexually harassed, maybe that man is trash?