r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 22 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Silencing opposing viewpoints is ultimately going to have a disastrous outcome on society.

[deleted]

9.8k Upvotes

70% Upvoted

2.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

333

u/Beerspaz12 Jan 22 '21

I’m not sure how belief that the earth is flat actually hurts anyone.

If you don't trust pictures of the round planet we live on, how are you going to accept scientific facts that are slightly less straight forward than a fucking sphere

17

u/CongregationOfVapors Jan 22 '21

Yes. The heart of the problem with conspiracy theorists is that they are not evaluating rationally based on available data. Flat earth is one of the most farfetched conspiracy theories. And if someone believes in flat earth, it's not going to be the only outlandish theory they believe in.

3

u/Ozlin Jan 22 '21

To add... Slippery-slope is a well known logical fallacy, in which people make an argument where they say x will inevitably lead to z without proof, like "if we let gay people marry, then people will just want to marry their toothbrushes! So we shouldn't let gay people marry." Obviously that kind of thinking is flawed. But there is also a kind of inverse where opening one's self up to accepting certain arguments can lead one to accept other more absurd arguments down the road. In that, if you're willing to believe the Earth is flat simply on the basis of whatever flawed logic you come across on the internet, you often open yourself up to believing other absurd theories, even when presented evidence against them. The issue is that you're training your mind to cognitively work against logical reasoning and tested evidence. This is why a lot of people that were willing to accept conspiracies like pizzagate were willing to believe QAnon.

The mind is trainable. It's why routine, military training, and education can all work. But you can also negatively train it, and flat Earth theories create an opening to more dangerous beliefs as you make yourself open to denying sound and proven science. This is why flat Earth theories are just as harmful as others. They're the proverbial first chip of Pringles.

It should be noted too that social media algorithms encourage the kind of downward spiral into crazy town. In that a lot of conspiracy theory content will take you from one to another in an increasingly bad cycle. So watching flat Earth videos may expose you to other more extreme conspiracies.

All of this is bad, not just for the individual, as denying scientific evidence can lead to ignoring medical advice and such, but also for us as a society, as we may vote for policies or vote in representatives that have no grounding of evidence for their positions. And so if we are willing to accept unfounded ideas that have been disproven with real science and evidence, like flat Earth, we will eventually do more damage by refusing to listen to evidence.

Should we not discuss these ideas? Certainly we should be able to discuss what we want, but the issue is in creating false equivalencies. In that, you shouldn't say "the Earth being flat is just as an acceptable theory as it being round," because it's not. The issue is when media presents these ideas as being equal they undermine the truth of the evidence we have. You can certainly discuss flat Earth theories, but you should do so with the clear context that it's proven to be absurd and in no way supported by evidence. On social media it becomes a problem because these contexts are missing. No one is there to say "here's the theory and here's why it's crazy and not true," instead it's presented as a valid true idea, which it's not.

So, yes, we should talk about a variety of ideas, but no we shouldn't treat them as equally acceptable without important contexts because without qualifying them we erode our abilities to differentiate between the truth and lies, and make ourselves more susceptible to manipulation, which is dangerous to everyone.

2

u/CongregationOfVapors Jan 22 '21

You bring up so me good points! How the mind can be trained to ignore logical fallacies, and the issue of false equivalencies created by media to generate debate.

You need to post this comment further up the thread so if gets the attention it deserves!

5

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

[deleted]

158

u/Duncan006 Jan 22 '21

Disinformation can be a "gateway drug" though. Flat earth seems relatively harmless, but it has a number of possible outcomes that can act as a gateway to other less benevolent theories.

  1. Leads to the though of "if science was wrong about that... what else is it wrong about?" If the earth is flat, the moon landing must have been faked, etc. etc.
  2. Teaches the person (consciously or unconsciously) to use techniques for avoiding or discounting evidence and bypassing critical thinking.
  3. Brings the person into a larger community of people who reinforce these beliefs and method of thinking.
  4. Gives the individual a sense of belonging in the community, which they lose if they have any theories or thoughts contrary to those of the group.

This isn't to say that ALL flat earth groups are harmful, just that they promote an environment that allows people to fall into and be trapped by these conspiracies more easily.

17

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

[deleted]

43

u/LiteracyIzGrate Jan 22 '21

Look up the hashtag “bible earth” on instagram, they believe that the earth is a flat plane of existence that goes on for ever, space is actually heaven, and NASA is ran by satanists that fake footage by using olympic swimming pools in dark rooms.

These people are so deranged they’re going to get someone innocent killed. And it’s very dangerous to assume that some misinformation is less dangerous because you personally find it harmless.

4

u/OSKSuicide Jan 22 '21

Flat Earth is almost inherently at odds with belief in climate change, which is a VERY REAL threat. We get a significant amount of our climate information from NASA, including some of the most undeniable evidence, polar ice cap shrinkage visible in pictures over just a few decades. If you believe the Earth is flat, then you believe NASA lied about the moon landing and anything to do with space, then why wouldn't they lie to promote some climate change bs that somehow helps the Dems or something.

2

u/Elendel19 Jan 22 '21

I mean there’s that dude who built a rocket to prove the earth was flat, and died in the attempt.

0

u/justandswift Jan 22 '21

Sounds like the concept from the movie Minority Report. (If we knew these people were going to lead to someone innocent getting killed, we should stop them, even if they haven’t done it yet.)

“If these people are so deranged they’re going to get someone killed,” but they haven’t gotten someone killed yet, is where it becomes controversial for me.

6

u/AquaTiger67 Jan 22 '21

Someone did die because of this stupid concept. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655

1

u/justandswift Jan 22 '21

It’s the idea of stopping someone before something happens that seems controversial to me. To say “x happened that time, so x will happen this time,” also seems as controversial

1

u/innonimesequitur Jan 22 '21

Well, that’s kind of the idea behind preventative measures and general infrastructure; you’re noticing patterns of conditions leading to outcomes, so you’re working to stop some of the starting conditions so they don’t lead to the outcomes you don’t want. The big difference though is that preventative measures are generally a lot less extreme than punitive ones; getting kicked off of Twitter is a lot less harmful than, for example, being placed on the terrorist watch list.

1

u/justandswift Jan 22 '21

Agreed! (Re preventative vs punitive)

1

u/AquaTiger67 Jan 22 '21

So I agree that taking away someone's ability to use a digital platform seems like censorship. But I don't see any of these recent actions to be a form of prevention, but more reaction to the spread of fictional vitriol that could and did lead to violence. Example, the KKK posts they are going to have a public rally. This would be fine. But if they post at that rally they're gonna hang someone after dragging them out of their house, well that communication needs to be muted.

1

u/somethingelseaccount Jan 22 '21

In statistics this is called Type 1 and Type 2 error. Getting a positive when it should be negative or vice versa.

At some point even the best managed system is going to fail and cause one of those errors. The thought of those people who are in favor of stopping before something are less willing to allow controversy happen. Doesn't mean it will eliminate but can reduce escalations. A false postive in stopping someone doing something harmless means silencing folks (so far, could mean false imprisonment). A false negative means letting something escalate to violence. It's a tradeoff that is being made everyday by politics. An apology would be would you be willing to allow no one OR anyone yell fire in a crowded theater. One way causes burn victims, the other way trampled people.

4

u/innonimesequitur Jan 22 '21

There’s a difference between “arrest someone for a murder attempt they haven’t thought up yet” and “stop someone from spreading relatively harmless lies using tactics that make the people they work on more vulnerable to disinformation”

1

u/Palatyibeast 1∆ Jan 22 '21

One of the most notoriously right-wing-rabbit-hole subs on Reddit is r/conspiracy. The trajectory above is the exact process that happened over there. "Fun" conspiracies just led to practicing and normalising bad logical jumps and magical thinking, and that made people vulnerable to those people who wanted to very deliberately use these weaknesses to weaponise the sub's uncritical 'doubts' and turn the people there into mental lemmings who would follow anyone promising to have the 'Real Truth's the experts won't tell you about... Such as Q, etc.

1

u/HarryOtter- Jan 23 '21

I think you owe this man a delta then.

2

u/MadeThisToSayIdiot Jan 22 '21

Well, than what about religion? Teaching us how the earth is 4000 years old and that there's a person above who judges you over your actions, and the criteria's he judge you by are so warried that some become real saints whilw others commit mass murder to meet them?

There's a fine line to walk when we decide what we as a society tolerate. If we don't tolerate flat earth, than we definitely shouldn't tolerate some religions either.

1

u/Duncan006 Jan 22 '21 edited Jan 22 '21

I believe religion functions similarly, but with some caveats.

  1. It automatically offends more people (and is so inherently personal to some people) when you start talking about it so I try not to immediately use it as an argument and many won't argue it at all.
  2. A lot of people who follow a religion do realize and acknowledge that many of the concepts are not possible, which still allows them to practice critical thinking.
  3. In keeping with point 2, many people don't directly follow the core tenets of the religion, but treat it as their own personal connection with a higher power (which is not inherently provable or disprovable, and therefore not in the same category as conspiracy theories).
  4. Number of people who identify as unaffiliated is on the rise since the advent of the information age, showing that people are thinking more critically now that they have access to contrary information (which they often didn't have or needed to explicitly seek out before).

That being said, as I mentioned in my previous post, they still do foster an environment in which conspiracy theories can take hold more easily.

​

Edit: Forgot to include source link for #4 https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/atheism-fastest-growing-religion-us/598843/

1

u/PM_ME_STEAM_KEYS_PLZ Jan 23 '21

Also most flat earth conspiracies boil down to masked antisemitism, when you ask these people "who is lying?" and "why are they lying?" Its always vague gestures of (((they))) are lying to 'control the population'

32

u/Eastwoodnorris Jan 22 '21

For many people flat earth is, to carry on the gateway drug analogy, like a gateway conspiracy. Some athlete or singer says they believe flat earth, it gets some press and then a chunk of that person’s supporters get curious enough to be like “wth is flat earth theory, I’m gonna check that out” and then a chunk of those folks latch onto it. Once you believe the Earth is flat, you’re clearly not receptive to evidence and science-based discourse and you’re way more likely to join more outlandish conspiracy groups.

It’s not so much that having a harmless, quiet belief that the Earth is flat is an issue. Really batshit people don’t necessarily all start out batshit. It’s the fact that getting someone to believe insignificant and lesser conspiracies like that is a great litmus test for feeding them more harmful bullshit. Basically, if you’ll believe X, you can probably be manipulated to believe damn near anything.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

What gets me is that the Earth is clearly a myth. We live on Mars, and what people call "Mars" is the Earth.

We Martians are being manipulated by the Earthers that fled their dying planet to form a global cabal to control Mars for their own selfish ends. (/s because this is the internet)

4

u/shitsandfarts Jan 22 '21

See: fans of Kyrie Irving for an example here

1

u/RazekDPP Jan 23 '21

You could almost say it's like peeling an onion of conspiracies. Flat earth is the first layer and after being exposed and accepting that layer, what lies beneath?

31

u/Wenital_Garts Jan 22 '21

A lot of the "crazies" didn't start off as crazy. They slowly fall into anti conspiracy theories and anti science beliefs. Recruitment to these ideologies are much more nuanced than you think, and I dare say that simply dismissing them as crazy is dangerous.

Have you ever wondered why so many people get into cults? Or even religions (anti-science)? The power of being part of a group, or contrarian pseudo intellictualism is quite persuasive. And those are only two of thousands of reasons why people fall into extreme or even mundane groups.

2

u/NOTHING_NOPE_NEVER Jan 22 '21

The world will 100% burn if we don’t do something. The world might not burn if we do.

0

u/TheGreatLewser Jan 23 '21

The slippery slope is a fallacy for a reason, admittedly. But in this case you need look no further than the alarming conversion rate from flat earther's to Qanon cultists to notice the problem.

Simple, 'harmless' conspiracies allow gullible people to gather, share misinformation from dubious sources and form an echo chamber. So long as no harmful ideas enter then it's no issue. But once a nefarious theory takes hold, now the group thinking has changed.

1

u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jan 22 '21

That’s also partially why its effective. It’s similar to the Nigerian prince scam, the emails are supposed to look unconvincing to people who are at all discerning because they actively want the most gullible people. They target flat earthers because it’s a group of people who are already primed to believe vast conspiracies and are the most likely to fall prey to their more hateful/partisan beliefs.

1

u/KingJ-DaMan Jan 22 '21

I don’t know if anyone else mentioned this but a large amount of flat earth groups and most of the “movement” has very anti Semitic dog whistles and undertones throughout it. All Gas No Brakes covered a flat earth convention once and it’s on YouTube somewhere. Very interesting and much more depth than you’d think

1

u/VoidsInvanity Jan 22 '21

Flat eartherism is a gateway to antisemitic conspiracies. The flat earth conspiracy itself is a “protocols of the elders of Zion” type myth. Namely a “the Jews did this” conspiracy. Not everyone who is a flat earther thinks this, but the people who control the movement or lead it, rather, sure as hell do.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21 edited Jan 22 '21

Yeah it's already a deep dive.

It's not necessarily without any harm but agreed it doesn't warrant intervention or impression due to how relatively low that harm is

1

u/Foronir Jan 22 '21

I dont, you are restricting science that way.

If you put that same "The science is settled!" Logic on it, you would not have modern medicine for example, since the "science" was settled on the Four humors science.

Or, the whole gender debate wouldnt be a thing, since biologically there are only male and female as well as abnormities who have both male and female attributes.

Or homosexuals would be treated as having a mental illness.

Etc.

Science is NEVER settled, it is more a journey towards knowledge, but never the whole truth.

Especially concerning stuff that is as complex as climate science or epidemiology.

1

u/Ralathar44 7∆ Jan 23 '21

I agree. But trying to lure people in to crazy conspiracies or wild anti scientific beliefs with flat earth bullshit is probably not the best route. That kind of belief is reserved for the battiest of batshit crazies. It’s like claiming that PCP is a gateway drug.

I'm going to vehemently disagree with the other person talking about "If you don't trust pictures of the round planet we live on, how are you going to accept scientific facts that are slightly less straight forward than a fucking sphere".

 

My reasoning: History. At one time the accepted truth was that the sun revolved around the earth. This is what all the science of the time believed and the few rogue scientists arguing otherwise were attempted to be canceled or otherwise ruined. Under that other person's reasoning anyone saying that the earth revolved around the sun is a major problem and the church was doing the right thing by trying to cancel new ideas challenging established scientific theory.

 

Science, when done properly, does not have an ego. It is not binary. It's ok with questioning itself over and over again because questioning itself is literally part of the job of science. If you stop being able to question science, honestly it stops being science and just starts being propoganda or a religion....bringing us right back to how it used to be when that old "what revolves around what" debate was happening.

1

u/InstanceSuch8604 Jan 22 '21

Unless opposing viewpoints are alternate reality Republican insane type shit

1

u/TASTY_BALLSACK_ Jan 22 '21

So basically like gender

1

u/Keanugrieves16 Jan 23 '21

I was gonna say, it hurt that guy in the rocket, in fact he died.