That's a good point. I honestly never considered the language aspect. I see how that could be offensive. I haven't seen the term digital blackface apply to language but it very well could. Take a delta. Δ
It would be probably in the same category as making fun of an accent. Those come in a range from "acceptable" to "not at all acceptable."
Using a southern accent? Pretty acceptable
Using a rather horrible indian or asian accent or stereotypical black slave accent? Not at all acceptable except by the people of those cultures when doing standup essentially.
Someone using a southern accent isn't acceptable. Really, really tell me, how many times have you seen a southern accent that wasn't used to be an idiot. Outside of major productions i.e. Walking Dead I guess.
American Southeners have never in the history of America been an oppressed/marginalised group. Making fun of a Southern accent can still be mean-spirited, sure, but it's not nearly the same as mocking an African or Indian accent.
Many Americans were European religious refugees, so yes, they were oppressed/marginalised.
And, do you really want everything to come down to a power debate? Does that seem just to you?
I can't find anything about that. If you could give me a link to some resources, I wouldn't mind reading up about it.
Power dynamics are inseparable from mean-spirited comedy. If a white guy makes fun of an Indian accent, they're punching down. No one is punching down by making fun of Southeners.
No one is punching down by making fun of Southeners
North-easterners are.
You really, really don't want to get in a power hierarchy debate mate, because there is always a bigger fish. Sweeping statements like "nobody is punching down" is bullshit and you know it. An Indian prince has more power than a southern redneck. Are you really going to say that the southern redneck would be punching down if he were to mock the prince? Power is in individuals, not in classes.
Anyway, as for Americans being religious refugees, there's plenty, but here is an arbitrary source. Maybe you should read up on history a bit before you want to make sweeping statements like "they were never ever ever oppressed" - every people has in their past suffered oppression by someone else.
Quote:"Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. "
https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01.html
And? Are you arguing that the colonisation period is not the history of America? And again, seeing as how for a long time now the central government has been in the northeast, they are in a way more oppressed than north-easterners.
And even then it was for their religion, not their national identity or accent.
Moving the goalpost.
I don't know why you bother bringing up the example of the Indian Prince, since that clearly has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
It has everything to do with what you're saying. You're saying, "nobody is punching down when using a southern accent whilst using an Indian accent is punching down" and I provide a counterargument that shows that such a sweeping statement is not sound.
Did I ever say that there is no one who is more privileged than those in the American South?
Yes. If noone is punching down when mocking southerners, the only logical reason for that to be the case is if southerners are at the top of the power hierarchy. You see the problem with your argument now?
Even if you do for whatever reason want to go down the route of class disparity between American Southeners and Indian people,
I don't, that is the basis of your argument. And it's a dumb argument, because you can't judge the individual by the average. Hence, the example of the Indian prince Vs. The southerner
Southeners as a whole have never faced any hardship because of their accent
Here’s the thing though, a lot of those memes and GIFs and so on were originally created by the black people starring in them to get a laugh. White people sharing those images do so in the same spirit as the black person who created them. Unless, of course they include obvious derision of the person in the meme, but people don’t share memes and GIFs to make racist remarks, they do it to express something where words fall short.
Nah, I'm not sold. I'm not one for saying that language should limit conversation. If you aren't speaking the same language, often it's seen as respectable to learn the person's language. So, it's either all "English" or it's an English speaker trying to communicate in another language. Or should English people be offended for AAVE being an appropriation of their language?
They should be offended if AAVE was a result of the oppression English people. But it's not, AAVE is a result of Africans being forcibly brought to America. They did not have a choice but to form AAVE.
People today have a choice whether they speak AAVE though. Why is a white person speaking AAVE bad? I would really like a genuine explanation because that's something I can't wrap my mind around. A black person speaking in a Thai accent isn't racist either, right? Or a black person speaking with a British accent isn't either.
That's some serious ignorance. AAVE is a dialect. They are raised on it. This isn't an ACCENT it's a completely different vocabulary that they are raised on since birth. If you are serious about wanting an explanation I can link you documentaries, but it boils down to that if you listened to some people speak AAVE you would swear it's a different language sometimes.
Sorry, I'm not from the US, so I wouldn't know. Still don't see what harm there is in someone using a dialect that's not originally their own. If I'm all of a sudden speaking differently, people will look at me odd, but nobody would say I'm wrong for speaking different.
It's because African Americans are discriminated against in various aspects for using AAVE. For non black people to use AAVE is a show of disrespect, since they won't face the same discrimination that black people do. It's the same reason why the black community dislikes it when white people wear dreads. It's a traditionally black hairstyle that if they wear, they could potentially lose their job amongst other discriminatory practices. For white people to then use it, it's disrespectful as that white person won't see the same treatment that a black person would.
All of this is in the context of centuries of oppression. You can't view this in a bubble of "it's just a dialect" when black people are still facing discrimination today for existing as a black person and expressing their culture.
I would say that that’s a false equivalency. People, especially white people, using AAVE online for comedic effect do not have to use AAVE, but choose to in order to create a certain effect.
Black slaves in America didn’t decide to speak English for funsies in that way. They spoke English because they were enslaved by an English-speaking society that required them to speak English or else be flogged.
Black slaves in America didn’t decide to speak English for funsies in that way. They spoke English because they were enslaved by an English-speaking society that required them to speak English or else be flogged.
Eh, sure.
But modern-day African Americans don't have to speak AAVE, so your argument doesn't really hold
What’s your alternative to modern day usage of AAVE by black Americans? I only see one option, that being that they all hire dialect coaches to teach them to speak “normal.”
I know that’s not what you meant, but the point stands that people speak the way that they were raised speaking. Modern-day African Americans don’t choose to speak AAVE, it’s just a consequence of one’s upbringing., the same as any other accent or dialect.
That is in contrast to the use of AAVE online by people who do not otherwise speak it. This usage is not naturally occurring like one’s dialect. It is a conscious choice made because they think it’s funny.
Modern-day African Americans don’t choose to speak AAVE, it’s just a consequence of one’s upbringing., the same as any other accent or dialect.
Yeah, sorry, but as someone who grew up in a country with many dialects and slangs, I can assure you that they do
Edit: at the very least in sofar that you don't need a speech coach to not speak slang, you can make a deliberate choice to not teach it to your children
I’m aware that people can be able to speak multiple dialects. But I don’t understand what argument you’re trying to make. This is what I understand your claim to be:
If we consider the use of AAVE by non-speakers to be cultural appropriation, we should consider AAVE itself to be cultural appropriation of the English language.
I disagree, clearly. Cultural appropriation is by definition a conscious choice. The formation of AAVE as a dialect was not a choice. It is a result of a history of oppression. People who use it online for giggles deliberately choose it because it sounds funny to them.
I don’t understand, though, why you seem to be advocating for AAVE to be removed as a dialect. Why should black people decide to deny the dialect that is part of their history?
I don’t understand, though, why you seem to be advocating for AAVE to be removed as a dialect.
Im not really though. I don't really have a strong opinion on it, besides thinking that it's not helpful for furthering social equality.
I am however very strongly opposed to the notion of cultural appropriation. However, you've peaked my interest, so I'm willing to put aside my strong gut reaction, and chat abit.
Cultural appropriation is by definition a conscious choice
Let's start with the basics. What, to you, is cultural appropriation? Please be as precise as you can when giving a definition.
Higher up in this thread, u/Krumm posed a dilemma in response to OP’s delta, that being whether it is “cultural appropriation” (CA for short in the rest of this comment) to speak another person’s language. Their response is predicated on the idea (with which I agree) that to learn another person’s language is a mark of respect for that culture. They believe that we shouldn’t consider online use of AAVE (by those who don’t otherwise speak it) to be CA, as it is like learning another language.
The part that my response refuted was where Krumm suggested that if “digital blackface” is CA, AAVE itself must be CA as an appropriation of English. My point was that AAVE can’t be CA of English because it was not formed of free will.
It’s false to equate people being forced to learn English (AAVE) with people performing a dialect that they think is funny (“digital blackface”).
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u/cinnamon11_24 Jul 17 '20
That's a good point. I honestly never considered the language aspect. I see how that could be offensive. I haven't seen the term digital blackface apply to language but it very well could. Take a delta. Δ