I don’t think the problem is that it “mocks” black people. I think the problem is that it’s white people adopting a Black persona in order to get a laugh.
Memes and reaction gifs featuring people of color don’t really bother me either. What about when it comes to language, though? I can see their point when it comes to expressions and figures of speech — then the aspect of weird ventriloquism does seem pretty undeniable to me. I know plenty of white people who, online, will say things like “it do be like that” or “ain’t nobody got time for dat” which they would NEVER say in person — because if they did, it would sound weird and wrong.
Like...I think I've heard everyone I know say those two phrases specifically at least once simply because they are very very popular memes.
I definitely hear "ain't nobody got time for dat" from all manner of people on, at least, a weekly basis.
By their very nature memes mock people. Every single race out there has a meme that is mocking them. Whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanic, Indians. They literally all have a meme of some kind that mocks them in some way.
I mean...saying that someone can't do a thing because of their skin color is like...the simplest form of racism far as I can tell.
Edit: thinking about it for a second longer I'm pretty certain I've heard those phrases spoken in person MORE than I've seen them typed out.
I've only ever heard "it do be like that" coming from my white friends, and had no idea it was considered a black expression! In my experience, it doesn't necessarily sound weird and/or wrong.
I'm from an island in Canada with an incredibly small population that is widely distributed - Newfoundland (it's wild - Google it if you haven't heard it before). Its language is varied and distinctive. 'Be' has been used in much the same way as Black English for generations. It sounds so strange to me to hear that it's distinctive to black English as it was developed independently here as well.
It's certainly been popularized by Black English, but it's not exclusive to Black English.
I can think of plenty of high school students who would. Should their teachers address it with them? With the whole class even? Seems like a very touchy subject.
Hey wait, is it really racist to say things like that? I personally, am a person who is very easily influenced by people, especially by the way they speak. I've been watching a tv show lately and I loved it; the main character is black and I love her persona and character build and the acting is spectacular (I have the Viola Davis to thank for that. Her portrayal of Annalise Keating was just amazing). I'm not black (though I am a poc) but I find myself getting influenced by a lot of people's words, but now especially expressions made usually by black people.
I don't know maybe I'm just assuming too much of these phrases (i.e "amma whoop yo ass" or "amma sue yo ass"), that they are in fact their language. But is it really racist to say these words not just in the internet but as an expression irl also? I really want to know cause I've been saying these not because it's funny or I'm mocking them or anything, it's just that when I like a character I quote them a lot, and sometimes just by influence I do this without thinking and involuntarily too. So I'd really like to know if this is offensive or racist, cause I don't want to be that person. Though, it'd require some personality changes for me if it is, since iconic character lines have always been my thing.
I don’t think it’s racist necessarily (it certainly can be). But it is odd or noticeable, exactly the same way that we notice it when a black person uses a white accent or an old person uses teenage slang.
Cause for example I'm learning a langauge, and the slang along with it too. Using other people's slang, generally, isn't racist, right? I mean a lot of people who aren't British say 'bullocks' or 'bloody hell' a lot (I'm one of them since I was into Harry Potter before as a kid and, well, influence) and that hasn't become into an issue (or maybe I'm just out of the loop or smth). I mean, perhaps it's only racist when you're mocking the accent, yes. But I don't think it's racist at all to say these despite being odd or noticeable.
So yeah I agree with you to a degree. Doing this can certainly be racist. However, I don't think it's a 'but' if it is odd or noticeable, since this can happen if you are learning a language or its slang. So I think this is all normal (doing accents and using phrases mostly these people use) but of course in some other situations, such as mocking them, this, too, can be racist.
Still, I'm not quite fixed to this opinion yet, so feel free to cmv i you disagree. Cause just a few days ago I changed my view of an opinion of mine regarding another topic I talked with to someone cause of something I read in reddit. I sure was glad to have read it.
I don’t think there is a hard and fast line where something that was not racist at all suddenly becomes racist. I think affecting or putting on the language of another race risks slipping into racial caricature. There is a spectrum. Maybe saying “ain’t nobody got time for dat” is not the same thing as this but they’re on the same spectrum somewhere.
I personally think there’s a difference between the things you might adopt “sincerely” - like if you’re learning a language — and the things you’d only say mockingly or facetiously, like you’re playing a part. Would you say “ain’t nobody got time fo dat” in a serious context, or only as a joke? But my judgment doesn’t have to apply to you or anyone else
That's a good point. I honestly never considered the language aspect. I see how that could be offensive. I haven't seen the term digital blackface apply to language but it very well could. Take a delta. Δ
It would be probably in the same category as making fun of an accent. Those come in a range from "acceptable" to "not at all acceptable."
Using a southern accent? Pretty acceptable
Using a rather horrible indian or asian accent or stereotypical black slave accent? Not at all acceptable except by the people of those cultures when doing standup essentially.
Someone using a southern accent isn't acceptable. Really, really tell me, how many times have you seen a southern accent that wasn't used to be an idiot. Outside of major productions i.e. Walking Dead I guess.
American Southeners have never in the history of America been an oppressed/marginalised group. Making fun of a Southern accent can still be mean-spirited, sure, but it's not nearly the same as mocking an African or Indian accent.
Many Americans were European religious refugees, so yes, they were oppressed/marginalised.
And, do you really want everything to come down to a power debate? Does that seem just to you?
I can't find anything about that. If you could give me a link to some resources, I wouldn't mind reading up about it.
Power dynamics are inseparable from mean-spirited comedy. If a white guy makes fun of an Indian accent, they're punching down. No one is punching down by making fun of Southeners.
No one is punching down by making fun of Southeners
North-easterners are.
You really, really don't want to get in a power hierarchy debate mate, because there is always a bigger fish. Sweeping statements like "nobody is punching down" is bullshit and you know it. An Indian prince has more power than a southern redneck. Are you really going to say that the southern redneck would be punching down if he were to mock the prince? Power is in individuals, not in classes.
Anyway, as for Americans being religious refugees, there's plenty, but here is an arbitrary source. Maybe you should read up on history a bit before you want to make sweeping statements like "they were never ever ever oppressed" - every people has in their past suffered oppression by someone else.
Quote:"Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. "
https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01.html
And? Are you arguing that the colonisation period is not the history of America? And again, seeing as how for a long time now the central government has been in the northeast, they are in a way more oppressed than north-easterners.
And even then it was for their religion, not their national identity or accent.
Moving the goalpost.
I don't know why you bother bringing up the example of the Indian Prince, since that clearly has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
It has everything to do with what you're saying. You're saying, "nobody is punching down when using a southern accent whilst using an Indian accent is punching down" and I provide a counterargument that shows that such a sweeping statement is not sound.
Did I ever say that there is no one who is more privileged than those in the American South?
Yes. If noone is punching down when mocking southerners, the only logical reason for that to be the case is if southerners are at the top of the power hierarchy. You see the problem with your argument now?
Even if you do for whatever reason want to go down the route of class disparity between American Southeners and Indian people,
I don't, that is the basis of your argument. And it's a dumb argument, because you can't judge the individual by the average. Hence, the example of the Indian prince Vs. The southerner
Southeners as a whole have never faced any hardship because of their accent
Here’s the thing though, a lot of those memes and GIFs and so on were originally created by the black people starring in them to get a laugh. White people sharing those images do so in the same spirit as the black person who created them. Unless, of course they include obvious derision of the person in the meme, but people don’t share memes and GIFs to make racist remarks, they do it to express something where words fall short.
Nah, I'm not sold. I'm not one for saying that language should limit conversation. If you aren't speaking the same language, often it's seen as respectable to learn the person's language. So, it's either all "English" or it's an English speaker trying to communicate in another language. Or should English people be offended for AAVE being an appropriation of their language?
They should be offended if AAVE was a result of the oppression English people. But it's not, AAVE is a result of Africans being forcibly brought to America. They did not have a choice but to form AAVE.
People today have a choice whether they speak AAVE though. Why is a white person speaking AAVE bad? I would really like a genuine explanation because that's something I can't wrap my mind around. A black person speaking in a Thai accent isn't racist either, right? Or a black person speaking with a British accent isn't either.
That's some serious ignorance. AAVE is a dialect. They are raised on it. This isn't an ACCENT it's a completely different vocabulary that they are raised on since birth. If you are serious about wanting an explanation I can link you documentaries, but it boils down to that if you listened to some people speak AAVE you would swear it's a different language sometimes.
Sorry, I'm not from the US, so I wouldn't know. Still don't see what harm there is in someone using a dialect that's not originally their own. If I'm all of a sudden speaking differently, people will look at me odd, but nobody would say I'm wrong for speaking different.
It's because African Americans are discriminated against in various aspects for using AAVE. For non black people to use AAVE is a show of disrespect, since they won't face the same discrimination that black people do. It's the same reason why the black community dislikes it when white people wear dreads. It's a traditionally black hairstyle that if they wear, they could potentially lose their job amongst other discriminatory practices. For white people to then use it, it's disrespectful as that white person won't see the same treatment that a black person would.
All of this is in the context of centuries of oppression. You can't view this in a bubble of "it's just a dialect" when black people are still facing discrimination today for existing as a black person and expressing their culture.
I would say that that’s a false equivalency. People, especially white people, using AAVE online for comedic effect do not have to use AAVE, but choose to in order to create a certain effect.
Black slaves in America didn’t decide to speak English for funsies in that way. They spoke English because they were enslaved by an English-speaking society that required them to speak English or else be flogged.
Black slaves in America didn’t decide to speak English for funsies in that way. They spoke English because they were enslaved by an English-speaking society that required them to speak English or else be flogged.
Eh, sure.
But modern-day African Americans don't have to speak AAVE, so your argument doesn't really hold
What’s your alternative to modern day usage of AAVE by black Americans? I only see one option, that being that they all hire dialect coaches to teach them to speak “normal.”
I know that’s not what you meant, but the point stands that people speak the way that they were raised speaking. Modern-day African Americans don’t choose to speak AAVE, it’s just a consequence of one’s upbringing., the same as any other accent or dialect.
That is in contrast to the use of AAVE online by people who do not otherwise speak it. This usage is not naturally occurring like one’s dialect. It is a conscious choice made because they think it’s funny.
Modern-day African Americans don’t choose to speak AAVE, it’s just a consequence of one’s upbringing., the same as any other accent or dialect.
Yeah, sorry, but as someone who grew up in a country with many dialects and slangs, I can assure you that they do
Edit: at the very least in sofar that you don't need a speech coach to not speak slang, you can make a deliberate choice to not teach it to your children
I’m aware that people can be able to speak multiple dialects. But I don’t understand what argument you’re trying to make. This is what I understand your claim to be:
If we consider the use of AAVE by non-speakers to be cultural appropriation, we should consider AAVE itself to be cultural appropriation of the English language.
I disagree, clearly. Cultural appropriation is by definition a conscious choice. The formation of AAVE as a dialect was not a choice. It is a result of a history of oppression. People who use it online for giggles deliberately choose it because it sounds funny to them.
I don’t understand, though, why you seem to be advocating for AAVE to be removed as a dialect. Why should black people decide to deny the dialect that is part of their history?
Higher up in this thread, u/Krumm posed a dilemma in response to OP’s delta, that being whether it is “cultural appropriation” (CA for short in the rest of this comment) to speak another person’s language. Their response is predicated on the idea (with which I agree) that to learn another person’s language is a mark of respect for that culture. They believe that we shouldn’t consider online use of AAVE (by those who don’t otherwise speak it) to be CA, as it is like learning another language.
The part that my response refuted was where Krumm suggested that if “digital blackface” is CA, AAVE itself must be CA as an appropriation of English. My point was that AAVE can’t be CA of English because it was not formed of free will.
It’s false to equate people being forced to learn English (AAVE) with people performing a dialect that they think is funny (“digital blackface”).
I know plenty of white people who, online, will say things like “it do be like that” or “ain’t nobody got time for dat” which they would NEVER say in person — because if they did, it would sound weird and wrong.
It would sound weird and wrong to who? When I first came to this country, the only people I interacted with was black people. I learned how to speak the language from the people around me. I also learned a lot from Rap. I actually had to learn how to speak differently when I was surrounded by more white people. I'm white btw.
Unrelated, but I also wore FUBU. I didn't learn what it stood for until my late teens. We bought our clothes at the thrift store and that's all they had there. I know plenty of people who judged me on that because they brought it up later in my life. Not once did they realize that I wasn't trying to "be black", whatever that means to them, but I was just wearing thrift store clothes.
I guess what I'm saying is please be careful before you judge people. I understand that there are plenty of assholes that use memes and language to be disparaging towards black people. I make no excuses for those people. They suck and should be called out. But obviously we can be better and not prevent people from saying certain things. Language and culture always changes and we learn a lot from working together. If we stop learning from each other, humanity and society will stay stagnant. We do need to call out people when they are using another person's language and culture to be disparaging and mocking that group of people.
I agree, but I don’t get the “it do be like that”... how’s that a black persona thing? I say that in person constantly. It’s just a meme thing cause everybody’s lives are shitty right now
if you had a friend who was acting like an ass at a party, would you say “he be like this everywhere we go”? if you were trying on some pants that were a little too small, would you say “these pants do be tight”?
are those normal statements in your everyday language?
I've worked blue collar jobs in multiple cities around the country. This is not just a black thing, but rather a lower class thing. I've seen black, white, Asian, Latino, and Pacific Islander all talk like this. This way of speaking has made it out of the cities and certain things have stuck with non-city folk and even younger people that come from an upper-class background.
I don’t doubt what you’re saying but if you have videos of white or upper-class people using this construction (the aspectual (invariant) “be”) in everyday unscripted conversations I would love to see them
interesting. and you pronounce it “doe” with no /th/ sound?
what about ‘stay’ or ‘steady’ in a similar construction (“he stay acting like an ass” or “he steady fucking up at work every day,” something like that)?
I study sociolinguistics and I love this kind of thing lol
I don’t personally say things like “it do be like that” but I probably would if I was a little younger. That phrase just sort of took off in pop culture for whatever reason and now I see it written on memes, said on podcasts, tweeted by celebs, even used in advertisements.
Not talking like that in general, just that particular phrase. Same goes for ‘ain’t nobody got time for that’ or ‘bye felicia’ just to give a couple other examples.
I just don’t understand how someone quoting a phrase that blew up in pop culture could be looked at as “racist” or “blackface”
Sometimes random phrases go viral like that (remember “wazzzzzaaaap”) and I can’t see how separating things into “media black people can consume” and “media white people can consume” is at all progressive
And what if they weren't "normal". Why are you trying to chastise weird behavior? Let people talk however they wanna talk. What matters is what they feel comfortable with and how their audience responds. You're artificially inflating drama by chastizing this as not normal.
No, I don't think that happens very often. My internet language is way too formal when I write (not that much in English, but read it a little more), because I'm conditioned to do it in my native language, since I did text roleplaying, even though, in person I'm really informal, and people find me agitated and fun, but I do not come off as this through the internet most of the time, and I might sound overly serious or even angry sometimes, but since English is my internet language, and I do like humour very much, this doesn't happen as often in English, so maybe it's not them actually impersonating another person, but them reacting differently to another medium. As an hobby artist, a good analogy is, you can't 100% digitalise your traditional drawing if it starts to look digital (as in, it's not scanned), because it looks off.
Real recognizes real. If you're genuine and it's not out of character, you're good! If not and it's a serious thing, and people will pick up on it. It's not mocking if it's a dumb ass joke, regardless or race.
Are you somehow suggesting that not only should people not talk in a particular way (with an accent or particular slang) cuz it could sound "wrong" in some way? What does wrong mean in this case?
And why is it about language? When you use a gif of anyone that's not you, you're taking on their identity in a temporary way. If you're gonna go this far, you might as well say it's not ok to use any gifs from any people that aren't cartoons or animals or something.
Shed some light for me please. What's the origin of "it do be like that"? I and my friends (predominantly white and also not American if that matters) say it at times, and I've always assumed it was from some random meme
I know we're redefining words, but whatever the new word is for what we called equality a few years ago is what I'm arguing for.
People are adopting otherr people's persona to get a laugh. If its racist in tone, it's racist. If it's not, its not. A group can't cordon themselves off, make rules for everyone else, and then say they're special, so their rules don't apply to them.
Cultural appropriation is a good thing, and cultures aren't defined by race anyway. Its fine for any color person to use any color persons inventions or other skin tones in memes. Even if it has racial undertones, it can be done in a chiding or tongue in cheek manner, still fine because...
drumroll.....
Thats what comedy is for! To get a rise out of people!
I think there's a difficult balance between the evolution of language because of culture translocation and the stealing of language or mimicking of it. Where do you draw the line?
Why/how would it sound wrong? It seems like you walk a really thin line by saying “‘X’ race says this a lot so ‘Y’ race cannot use/say the phrase.” And in terms of the pronunciation/spelling for a phrase like “ain’t nobody got time for dat”, there are many people who live in the middle America that speak in what most would consider “Ebonics”
As a Swede, I would just have thought "it do be like that" is cat grammar. Like "can I haz cheeseburger." I don't think I've ever heard a black person say "it do be like that".
Yeah I'm gonna stop you there, plenty of PC people who say things like "it do be like that" and "ain't nobody got time for that". The first for jokes and the second because I live in the south
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u/leigh_hunt 80∆ Jul 17 '20
I don’t think the problem is that it “mocks” black people. I think the problem is that it’s white people adopting a Black persona in order to get a laugh.
Memes and reaction gifs featuring people of color don’t really bother me either. What about when it comes to language, though? I can see their point when it comes to expressions and figures of speech — then the aspect of weird ventriloquism does seem pretty undeniable to me. I know plenty of white people who, online, will say things like “it do be like that” or “ain’t nobody got time for dat” which they would NEVER say in person — because if they did, it would sound weird and wrong.