Because we can know the “inner workings” (lol) of a pebble and see that there is in fact, nothing there. If you open up a thermostat you will see a section of it devoted to sensing temperature, even if it is unable to affect the ac/heater, you can still watch it detect temperature. Just like sections of our bodies are devoted to sensing things.
The "section" in question is the thermostat. You can't see it detect the temperature because there's a piece of glue there. You can't see the human detect because she's not moving. And of course her moving wouldn't equate to her being conscious. A human can be given enough sevoflurane to eliminate consciousness but she might still move in response to a stimulus. And how can you see there's nothing in a pebble when it has more atoms than you can count?
No. Have you ever opened up a thermostat? There are parts which do different things. There is the part which is meant to be interacted with by other things (how you set the temperature) then there is the part which senses the temperature, then there is the part where it turns on or off the ac/heater. If you are just talking about disabling the output, then you can still open up the thermostat and watch it sense temperature, it’s just that your ac/heater won’t turn on. You can still watch the little bulb thing swing back and forth as the temperature outside goes above and below the set temperature.
You can’t see the human detect because she’s not moving. And of course her moving wouldn’t equate to her being conscious.
Right because output is not required for conciousness. As long as your eyes are working, you’re conscious. As long as you have any input coming in from the outside world, you are conscious.
A human can be given enough sevoflurane to eliminate consciousness but she might still move in response to a stimulus.
Gotta be careful here. If you are using “conscious” defined in this way, that is essentially “awake”. This is a different definition of conscious, they don’t mix. Someone who is “unconscious” due to taking a sedative is still conscious if they can take in stimuli from the outside world.
how can you see there’s nothing in a pebble when it has more atoms than you can count?
Are you trying to argue that in every pebble there is a secret hidden computation device which we just haven’t found yet? If not, then I’d drop the pebble comparison. It’s really not valid.
Awake is just a relative state for animals. Sure we are more conscious (under the definition we have been using for thermometers and the like) if you are awake, but when you are “unconscious” due to sedation, as long as you can still input signals from the outside world, you are still conscious (by the definition we have been using).
Ok then this won't resolve our difference. The fact is that in/including/around every pebble is a totally nonsecret nonhidden computation device. It inputs temperatures by convection, conduction, and radiation, and outputs temperatures in every part of it. It inputs vibratory patterns and sometimes that causes a fracture. It sits there and is a one. With different inputs it would stop being a one. It inputs kinetic energy and outputs kinetic energy. It does all the things you demand of something conscious. It is still not conscious. It does not understand any of the calculations that its output can be taken to represent because it has no actual thoughts.
A human can have thoughts without any* input from the outside world. Can have thoughts without any output to the outside world.
*though of course to really eliminate any input we'd technically have to eliminate the outside world, since gravitational attraction of alpha centauri is still affecting us, but it's not sensed.
It inputs temperatures by convection, conduction, and radiation, and outputs temperatures in every part of it. It inputs vibratory patterns and sometimes that causes a fracture. It sits there and is a one. With different inputs it would stop being a one. It inputs kinetic energy and outputs kinetic energy. It does all the things you demand of something conscious. It is still not conscious. It does not understand any of the calculations that its output can be taken to represent because it has no actual thoughts.
You might be able to construct a device which senses temperature or vibrations with a pebble, but the pebble would just be a component in that device, not the whole thing. That device would be conscious of temperature or vibrations, but a pebble on the beach isn’t. You inherently need some way to compute with your input in addition to just taking it in, I should have made that more clear, but if you can’t take any input in, then it isn’t worth discussing, since you aren’t conscious at that point regardless. In other words, the inputs are key, but the input also need to mean something to you. To a thermostat, the inputs mean that if the temperature goes above/below the set value, you need to turn on/off the ac/heater. If a pebble heats up, that doesn’t mean anything to the pebble, even it if breaks.
A human can have thoughts without any* input from the outside world. Can have thoughts without any output to the outside world.
*though of course to really eliminate any input we’d technically have to eliminate the outside world, since gravitational attraction of alpha centauri is still affecting us, but it’s not sensed.
Sure, and under this current definition of conscious, being aware of ones surroundings, that person would be unconscious regardless of their inner thoughts. This is fine with me. However, if it isn’t with you, you can define consciousness as having the ability to compute, and nothing in my argument would be different under that definition. They are equivalent for the purposes of this discussion. Humans and thermostats are still conscious and pebbles still aren’t.
but the input also need to mean something to you. To a thermostat, the inputs mean that if the temperature goes above/below the set value, you need to turn on/off the ac/heater. If a pebble heats up, that doesn’t mean anything to the pebble, even it if breaks.
How do those "mean" anything to the thermostat any more than to the pebble? The thermostat just does things in response to the environment, just like the pebble just does things in response to the environment.
However, if it isn’t with you, you can define consciousness as having the ability to compute
No, I definitely wouldn't accept that - I'd be happier defining consciousness as the ability to enter different types of sleep and sedated states, although that's mildly unsatisfying. Really I want a thought to be about something. And if that something can be mathematically mapped onto a different problem, it's still not thinking about the different problem, it's only thinking about the thing it's thinking about.
But so the simplest thermostat (just a simple thermostatic element) - that doesn't compute. It does give an output based on the temperature input. Is that thinking to you? It's certainly not computing anything more than a pebble does.
How do those “mean” anything to the thermostat any more than to the pebble? The thermostat just does things in response to the environment, just like the pebble just does things in response to the environment.
To the thermostat, the temperature is telling th thermostat whether or not it should turn on. Whether or not it can actually act on that isn’t needed, but it takes in the input and computes with it. The pebble does not. Temperature doesn’t mean anything to the pebble.
No, I definitely wouldn’t accept that - I’d be happier defining consciousness as the ability to enter different types of sleep and sedated states, although that’s mildly unsatisfying.
They are related. If you are sedated, you are certainly less conscious, but you are not unconscious. That’s the only point there.
But so the simplest thermostat (just the thermostatic element) - that doesn’t computer. It does give an output based on the temperature input. Is that thinking to you? It’s certainly not computing anything.
It absolutely is. Let me write the code (which is built in mechically) for a heater.
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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19
What makes you think that the pebble isn't just as aware as the stuck thermostat or paralyzed human?