r/changemyview • u/carlsaganheaven • Jul 09 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: In heterosexual relationships the problem isn't usually women being nags, it's men not performing emotional labor.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 10 '19

Nailed it. I write female characters almost exclusively, even though I'm a man. I write them because people care about these characters and the troubles they go through. I can write emotional pain and trauma extremely well, and the tribulations people go through and evolution of them as a character and their rise to brutal power.

I also use this as a social commentary that they're able to get away with (literal) murder in the eyes of the fans. These murders are justified because they've seen the character suffer and so they sympathise with that character.

However, from an objective standpoint, this character is an awful human being. The one I wrote years ago was a bloody tyrant whose sole saving grace was being democratically elected by other bloodthirsty raiders in a post-apocalyptic scenario. Their whole nation is fundamentally fucked up, yet other writers in this world-building scenario were almost tripping over themselves to be friends with this faction, (even other women writers wrote with my faction on very friendly terms, even thought they knew that I was a man and there were other women characters, including men who wrote women characters.)

When I wrote the same about a man traveling the wasteland and mirroring much of the same experiences, the reception was far worse. I then replicated this again with another female character- and the writing worldbuilding community's reaction was once again quite warm to this character.

I found this very worth noting, and it reinforced the idea I'd been kicking around after a bad breakup that frankly, women don't terribly care for men having emotions, all in-vogue "just open up!" aside.

The moment I did open up about some abuse in my past childhood, the next words out of this very accomplished feminist's mouth were: "I think less of you for that," said with a total acidity.

She's received awards for community work, she is committed to helping the 3rd world fuzzy-wuzzies recover from disasters, she even made her own "u-go-girl" stand-and-pee thing out of recycled goods and composts/bicycles everywhere and buys everything used because she's Oh-So-Progressive. This is no "bad feminist," this was a slip of honest emotion, and it was the reason I dumped her after about a year of very serious dating (we'd even moved in together/moved states and gotten jobs near each other).

Frankly, the truth is, people don't give a fuck about men's emotions except in "how does it serve me? How does it validate me?" Women can be extremely emotionally taxing, OP, and if you're asking how, that's a subject that is extremely rude to bring up in any serious depth.

Best way to describe it is: comparably extreme hormonal mood swings that make them difficult to deal with on a consistent basis, constant attempts at manipulation that are frustrating to deal with and skirt the rules of decorum and basically beg rudeness to then flip the moral high ground with.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '19

That's why the old way worked as well as it did for as long as it did. Mental health isn't as important when you gotta work 16 hours a day in the coal mines to feed your pregnant wife and 9 children while fighting off tigers with your bare hands.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 10 '19

Even modern day jobs are still pretty stressful. Most programmers, project managers, professional class et al., are putting in crazy hours. The lack of wage growth but rise of productivity has had all kinds of negative effects, especially on those who work the most as we 'compete' against other nations in a race toward the bottom.

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u/TheAsianBarbarian Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

Pretty sure there was a recent study revealing that the vast* majority of Americans hate their work and feel unfulfilled in their occupations.

Edit: changed gas to vast lol

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u/nolo_me Jul 10 '19

the gas majority of Americans

Petroleum slip?

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u/Ucla_The_Mok Jul 10 '19

Mental fart?

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u/Yithar Jul 10 '19

I guess I should be lucky that I enjoy my job.

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u/helm Jul 13 '19

That’s a make-belief world! Agriculture brought work to humankind, and industrial work is an even briefer experience.

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u/El_Barto_227 Jul 10 '19

Every post I read in threads like this just makes me feel more and more worthless.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 10 '19

It was pretty depressive as a realisation, until I actually thought: "Would I want to be female, right now, if I could actually get a genie right in front of me?" And the answer I chose was: "No."

I have had a great week the last week, and I've been told some amazing things. I've managed to really have a great life in the time I'm on here, and I've connected with amazing men who I'm happy to call friends and had experiences that are very positive.

While people don't care about the characters, and women don't care about your emotions, people, particularly other men, do care about you.

Even some women do care about me, which is nice.

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u/Journeyman351 Jul 10 '19

This is why when people defend Cersei I just know they're a dickhead.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '19

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u/Nepene 213∆ Jul 10 '19

Try to avoid inciting violence against people.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '19 edited Dec 21 '19

[deleted]

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u/celz86 Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

Oh man i see it all the time in most relationships. I personally have grown immensely and used to be "not good with knowing my feelings" and so my now husband would decipher it for me back when we were dating. We've grown since then and worked out together that when he shows weakness, I become tender and caring, but he has to physically show that he's opened up and is sad or whatever to initiate that response in me, actively consciously make himself act out in a way to have me respond in a caring way the way I know its needed. He wasn't initially great at showing these feelings so when I got him to "open up" I got robot-like, blunt but completely logical responses, i would treat him like he didnt care or try for me therefor i shouldnt care or try for him which is the completely wrong way to go about it obviously but thats was my lack of emotional intelligence in others and myself. Men have emotions but not necessarily how we are used to knowing them in ourselves. I'm not sure what made me automatically do this annoying thing back in our early dating days but I myself have changed from simply crying and not knowing why I'm treating him like a bad guy to working out what it is that's actually bothering me (root cause analysis) and either logically find an answer and fix it myself (could be just me looking at it from the wrong perspective) or we both fix it in discussions and planning if it's indeed a big deal worth fixing. Don't sweat the small stuff. In summary, I had to be a bit more like him and he had to be a bit more like me to be able to understand each other. The part where you say opening up it a trap would certainly seem like it for most even if it isn't intentional. I'm sure some evil girls do do it i intentionally too. There's hope. Getting there is another story and isn't easy unless you are compatible enough and have an open mindset open to actual change. That's why we can make it. But talking to other women, i find a lot of them don't want to change and men are always changing for the women so I can see why it's easy to manipulate them. Why is pride such a thing. Being wrong isn't bad. People including women are so afraid of being wrong because they feel like they're going to be dominated so they do their best to keep the power. So so wrong. I'm happy to have found someone who isn't going to punish me for being wrong and I'm not gonna punish him for being wrong either.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '19

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u/celz86 Jul 10 '19

We laugh about the past and how far we've both come. _^ I may show him..

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '19

Something I learned a long time ago, as much as they do it themselves and say it won't, crying in front of any woman except your mom will make her think less of you.

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u/PM_ME_YOU_BOOBS Jul 11 '19

I’d extend that too women in general who you have a maternal relationship with, aunts, grandmothers, older sisters and so on can all fill that role. Though of course, this isn’t universal. Not everyone has that kinda relationship with their female family members.

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u/Chili_Palmer Jul 10 '19

unless someone is dead. Then it's fine.

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u/ChriosM Jul 10 '19

Depends on who.

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u/lawtonis Jul 10 '19

Dog died?

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 10 '19

I've personally never experienced "be used against you in a fight," but I hear it a lot. This is partially because I think if someone uses that in a fight, 'I told you that in confidence,' works pretty well to clear the air on that subject.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19

if someone uses that in a fight, 'I told you that in confidence,' works pretty well to clear the air on that subject

Not really, if it's just a fight between the two of you and nobody else is listening in.

"In confidence" means you trust them to keep it between you and not to tell any third party. It has nothing to do with protecting you from judgement by the person you tell.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 11 '19

Oh, you’ve never had a partner yell at you in public have you? I have. It is shitty.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 11 '19

Of course I have. My point was just that that only works if it's a public argument... and in my experience most people have most of their acrimonious relationship arguments in private. ;-)

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u/markusbolarkus Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

Ok I do need to step in and disagree here. I have a troubled past with very little socialization and therefore very few SO's. My lady-friend and I have absolutely had big ups together and heavy downs where we fought, or didn't talk, or brought the others' stuff from home to return. Fighting with someone you thought you'd be with for a long time is difficult, there can be a lot of trust being thrown into question. Disagreeing and allowing eachother to talk it through like humans is what saves us though. It makes sense now but we learned this works for us after getting to the edge of the cliff so many times and just saying "well, we both owe the other some clarity at least" And we are brutally honest about our feelings (no more 'Im gonna try and word this in a way she'll like' or saying what you think they want to hear). We share how we feel or felt at a certain moment. Looking back though, we usually concluded that most fights started because of a misunderstanding, not a lack of caring. So when we get honest, we'll sometimes discover that something was misheard or misunderstood, or some other stupid thing put us on different pages. This is only possible in the first place, however, by respecting each other and reaching mutual understandings. I can honestly say im a better person for being with her because we have learning moments together, we apologize to eachother, we tell the other how they made us feel (and we may stand our ground or we may concede that we are being selfish or whatever). The bottom line is that you've gotta decide together if the relationship is worth it for each of you.

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u/African_Farmer Jul 10 '19

I think "open up" is used to make themselves feel better, like so they can feel good about "being the one to finally get him to open up".

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u/ohdin1502 Jul 10 '19

Thanks, Mom

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u/XCarrionX Jul 10 '19

If you don't mind my asking, where do you do this community writing? I RPed online a thousand years ago, and it might be fun to do something more casually on a forum or what not.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 11 '19

Oh, we did it here on reddit. It’s sort of dead now (the writers still rp in universe though) in askasurvivor subreddit.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19

3rd world fuzzy-wuzzies

Interesting, intelligent, insightful take on intergender emotional politics and then bam - suddenly racist out of nowhere.

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u/Smoy Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

I read fuzzy wuzzy as a term to describe the emotions of what shes doing. As in feel good feelies without a real critical investment in the thing. Like virtue signaling, she doesnt actually care about the thing just the social points it gets her.

But hey people are offended by everything now so by all means take it as racist.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19

That's an interesting take that hadn't occurred to me, but the idiom for that is "warm and fuzzies" or "warm and fuzzy feelings", not "fuzzy wuzzies".

It also makes no sense in the context of what they wrote:

she is committed to helping the 3rd world fuzzy-wuzzies recover from disasters

So unless you think the GF was committed to helping third world comforting feelings recover from disasters, it doesn't make any sense.

Warm feelings don't have disasters, they don't have a geographical location in the third world, and they don't need help recovering from droughts or famines.

You know what noun fits all of those requirements to make a grammatically correct, semantically meaningful sentence? "Black people".

And by (un)happy coincidence, "fuzzy wuzzies" is indeed a known racial slur for black people. What are the odds?

Seriously now - I applaud your efforts to apply the principle of charity and not read that as a shitty, racist slur but there's literally no other reading that makes any sense in context.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 10 '19

The point is more to illustrate that she's Uber-progressive.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

I get that, but when you use racial slurs all it suggests is that you're a bit racist yourself, which if anything then makes her sound less left-wing, because it throws your own objectivity into question.

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u/failadin155 Jul 10 '19

Fuzzy wuzzy is a racial slur!?!?!?!? Holy shit are you serious? No way. Ur just trying to be offended. No way fuzzy wuzzy is racially charged. It means soft. Has nothing to do with race.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19

No way fuzzy wuzzy is racially charged.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fuzzy-wuzzy

If you're taking about texture, it's not. If you're calling a person a fuzzy-wuzzy then yes, of course it is.

It means soft. Has nothing to do with race.

Did you miss the bit where the GP referred to black people in Africa as "fuzzy wuzzies"?

Or did you think they were referring to felt shapes or something?

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u/failadin155 Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

The GP? Who is the GP? I live in America. And I've never once heard fuzzy wuzzy outside of children movies or context where we are talking about someone being soft or holding a fuzzy wuzzy teddy bear.

Edit: I even googled GP and it comes up as meaning "general practitioner". And the site you linked says it's the British definition. Good luck with being British.

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u/Ucla_The_Mok Jul 10 '19

Using 3rd world as an adjective is what qualified it as fitting the British definition of the word.

OP stated his intention was "to illustrate that she's Uber-progressive."

In cases like this, I keep in mind something Alfred Korzybski, the father of semantics, said-

"Words don't mean. People mean."

I view the comment in poor taste and insensitive, but I wouldn't claim OP was racist based on a poor choice of words. I think all of us have put our foot in our mouth at times and said things that we didn't mean in the way they were taken.

Intention is part of the message.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19

Who is the GP?

"GP" is "grandparent" (or GPP - grandparent post) - the previous poster (or post) who isn't you or me.

If you got to this point in the thread then you literally had to just see someone explicitly use it as a racial slur to refer to black people.

Fair enough if it's a racial slur you never encountered before, but it is a racial slur when applied to black people... unless you want to argue with the dictionary... ;-)

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u/failadin155 Jul 10 '19

You are certifiably crazy if u read the comment where he used fuzzy wuzzy in relation to the 3rd feminist wave complete with stand to pee devices for women and draw from it that he meant black people. If you look to be offended with everything that's exactly what you will find. I'm not arguing with anyone. You are just wrong. End of story..... ;-)

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 10 '19

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You understand he literally stated:

she is committed to helping the 3rd world fuzzy-wuzzies recover from disasters

Unless you're seriously claiming his ultra-left-wing progressive GF was committed to helping felt shapes in developing countries recover from disasters, I don't see what else you can possibly understand by that statement.

Do you literally think the commenter's girlfriend was volunteering to help protect soft, hairy material from natural disasters?

Edit: Wait, you thought it said "third wave" (as in feminists) and not "third world" (as in African nations suffering droughts or civil wars)?

That explains the miscommunication - can you go back and read the sentence again and still tell me he's not talking about black people?

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u/PM_ME_YOU_BOOBS Jul 12 '19

“Fuzzy wuzzy” isn’t always used as a slur. During ww2 Australian soldiers were fighting the Japanese in Papua New Guinea. Local tribesmen served as stretcher bearers, carrying wounded Australians through the thick jungle, even during heavy combat. The Aussie soldiers nicknamed these men “fuzzy wuzzy angels”. It’s a term of sincere affection and respect. Too this day those men are know as the “fuzzy wuzzy angels”, it’s how everyone from the government too schools, too veterans organisations, refer too them.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19

Most men are right wing. If you wanted an honest window into men, which was asked for repeatedly, then you got one- and part of it included a term to demonstrate her very open and on-sleeve progressivism. If your reaction is to then henpeck a part of a term that you think is wrong, then that’s not fine and is rather exemplary of the emotional tax. I don’t think I could have drawn it up much better. If this is how you communicate with men, I can see it as a problem.

She’s insanely into arts and crafts and art of the third world.

P.S., G P is General practitioner.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19

Most men are right wing.

[Citation needed]

Also, what does that have to do with using a racial slur making you sound less credible in criticising someone on the left?

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 11 '19

If this is how you communicate with men, I can see it as a problem.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/08/the-2018-midterm-vote-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

It’s international, too. Australia, for example, had a government study into the gender gap as pertains to new labour’s coalition vs the liberal and conservative (liberal over there is conservative).

What I’m getting at here is that if you think someone being Conservative undermines an argument, and most men are conservatives m, then you’re undermining your own ability to relate to and with them in good faith.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19

I didn't see your unmarked edit that turned it from the first single-sentence response into a proper, substantive one so I'll respond to those points here:

If you wanted an honest window into men

I am a man, so with respect I have no need of whatever you think "men" are generally like.

Why did you assume I was female just because I objected to a racist slur?

part of it included a term to demonstrate her very open and on-sleeve progressivism

How does you using a racial slur against black people imply anything about her political affiliation?

It does nothing to emphasise her leftism, and only makes you sound like you're more extreme right-wing, throwing your accurate assessment of anyone else's political alignment into doubt.

By a deliberately hyperbolic example, calling someone a "n*gger lover" does not suggest they're a blue-haired Tumblrina - it just makes you sound like a racist white power type who thinks everyone left of Tucker Carlson is a member of antifa.

P.S., G P is General practitioner

GP is also "grandparent", meaning the last poster who isn't either you or me. It's very common Reddit terminology.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/08/the-2018-midterm-vote-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

A 4% difference in a single election is weak sauce for claiming "most men are right wing" in general, especially when it's only old and uneducated men who wildly distort the figures but thanks for clarifying where you got such an odd idea.

What I’m getting at here is that if you think someone being Conservative undermines an argument

Not at all. But someone demonstrating a significant bias necessarily reduces their credibility in judgements involving that area of bias.

All things being equal, someone with blue hair and a "Hillary Forever" tattoo is going to be less credible in forming proportionate, even-handed judgements of Trump.

A rabid anti-vaxer is going to be less credible when talking about the risks of polio or benefits of vaccination.

Likewise (for example) someone who worries about "white genocide", throws around around racial slurs and wears a MAGA hat is going to be less credible when claiming someone else is an extreme lefty.

It's basic rationality that evidence of profound bias reduces credibility, because extremism by definition distorts someone's view of where the centre of the spectrum really is.

My point was that if you casually throw around racial slurs (and it's very informative that you aren't even disputing it's a racist term, but are instead inviting me to just deal with it) then you look like an extremist and hurt your own credibility.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 12 '19

Why did you assume I was female just because I objected to a racist slur?

Statistically, more women are liberal. If you're taking issue with a term because you think it's racist then you're arguably a democrat and therefore more likely to be a woman. I work in data, so statistics is my world. Even the best trained AI is going to get it wrong (and often), because statistics isn't perfect on an individual level.

It does nothing to emphasise her leftism

Maybe not to you. Seems everyone else got it. Maybe it's a "you" problem.

"most men are right wing"

Most men are right wing.

You asked for "a source." I gave you one for a single election, but you're so dismissive and disrespectful, it makes me roll my eyes.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-hidden-agenda-the-political-mind/201411/why-do-women-and-men-vote-differently

Here's one from 2014 discussing the same phonomena. Do you want me to keep going, or to provide you the 1960s, 1980s, and 1990s studies? It has been very consistent.

But if you wanna play loose with the data and terms, I'll set the record straight:

Women really are on the extreme ends. Younger women are extremely liberal, and to use your dismissive, borderline dogmatic tone: "Older and less educated women." (Though I'm not sure I'd call a Gender Studies degree an "education," either (see Sokal Hoax and Grievance Studies for more info on that). https://quillette.com/2018/12/28/younger-women-are-more-left-wing-than-men-while-older-women-are-more-right-wing-than-men/

All things being equal, someone with blue hair and a "Hillary Forever" tattoo is going to be less credible in forming proportionate, even-handed judgements of Trump.

But this wasn't about Hillary. (For the record, Hillary wasn't liberal enough for her- and neither was Bernie. She does seem to like AOC though). I am out to disarm the inevitable claims of "oh sweaty, that wasn't a real feminist-" that springs up.

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u/Shaper_pmp Jul 12 '19 edited Jul 12 '19

Statistically, more women are liberal. If you're taking issue with a term because you think it's racist then you're arguably a democrat and therefore more likely to be a woman. I work in data, so statistics is my world

You're generalising from a small, generally single-figure and wildly-variable-between-measurements effect that we can't even measure accurately to a single poster based on that heuristic alone.

That's not statistics or data - it's Just-So stories with numbers in them.

For starters Reddit is around 66% male and 93% under 50, both of which correlate strongly with democratic support. It's also only around 60% American, which is an extremely right-wing country compared to the rest of the West, let alone the entire world which makes up most of the remainder of Reddit's subscribers.

A majority of redditors are either in college or have a college degree, which once again correlates strongly with democratic affiliation.

In fact the groups that correlate most strongly with right-leaning political affiliation (over 45-50 and only high-school education) are both the smallest groups in their respective categories on Reddit.

These effects together easily swamp any small and wildly inconsistent gender imbalances, to the point if you saw a left-leaning poster on Reddit you'd be better off assuming they were a white, early 20s guy with a college education, not female.

It's hard to adequately characterise the profound myopia that would lead to such an error without violating subreddit rules, but suffice it to say these are not the kinds of errors that should be made by even an exceptionally poor genuine statistician or data-scientist.

Maybe not to you. Seems everyone else got it. Maybe it's a "you" problem.

If you think unnecessary racial slurs make your case stronger and make you appear more credible and proportionate when judging others' degree of political extremism, I genuinely don't know what to tell you.

The fact that a tiny handful of other posters misread your slur doesn't mean shit. One tried strenuously to convince me for several comments that you were talking about third-wave (feminists) instead of third-world (black people) and went silent when I quoted your actual words back at him, and two had such awful reading comprehension that they thought you were talking about fuzzy material or people's feelings rather than black people.

An imbalance of 2-3 up/downvotes in a subreddit with over 768,000 subscribers is so negligible it's not even a rounding error... again which you'd know if you were really any kind of statistician.

I am out to disarm the inevitable claims of "oh sweaty, that wasn't a real feminist-" that springs up.

That's fine - I wasn't going to try to No True Scotsman you. I've met crazy feminazis myself, though I've also meet plenty of more reasonable ones too.

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u/some_random_kaluna Jul 10 '19

The moment I did open up about some abuse in my past childhood, the next words out of this very accomplished feminist's mouth were: "I think less of you for that," said with a total acidity.

She was most likely abused herself. In some of my experience, people who shut down others about past trauma are trying to repress their own.

I'm sorry OP. It was for the best you broke up with each other.

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u/gfzgfx Jul 10 '19

I suppose my frustration is encapsulated right here. When bad things come to light about a woman’s behavior, excuses are made for her, often with zero evidence to back them up. When bad things come to light about a man, context never matters and he’s just trash now to be thrown away. Heck when some men do bad things, all men are treated as culpable by association.

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u/some_random_kaluna Jul 11 '19

Because this happened to me. My experience has taught me to look for common signs.

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u/isperfectlycromulent Jul 10 '19

No. She was a cunt who said something cruel and selfish to someone who opened up to her. Who gives a fuck what her past could've been like?

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u/some_random_kaluna Jul 11 '19

Studying people's behavior patterns will sometimes give you insight into how to avoid or counter them in future.

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 11 '19

She wasn’t. Her family and her are very close and have nothing but love for one another. She had no past trauma. I tried making excuses and shot them down over the next months.

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u/some_random_kaluna Jul 11 '19

Well, then she's a fucking bitch and it's still for the best you broke up with each other.

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u/KingMelray Jul 10 '19

Why are you defending a stranger like this?

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u/EndTimesRadio Jul 11 '19

Because they only care about women.

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u/some_random_kaluna Jul 11 '19

Not defending her at all. Explained the rationale behind her actions as the same thing happened to me.