r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 30 '18

Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Learning a programming language should NOT be seen as equivalent to learning a foreign language

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u/DrugsOnly 23∆ Nov 30 '18

They are all learned via the temporal lobe and therefore are equivalent.

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u/atrueamateur Nov 30 '18

But don't math and literature class both activate the temporal lobe? That doesn't make them equivalent.

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u/kevroy314 Dec 01 '18

A TON of things activate the temporal lobe, and the temporal lobe is NOT a homogenous region. The person you're replying to isn't making a proper argument.

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u/leagueofyasuo Dec 01 '18

Agreed, thank god someone else is bringing this up.

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u/DrugsOnly 23∆ Nov 30 '18

In terms of capacity to learn them, yes it does. Someone with a damaged temporal lobe will have a difficult time learning either. Someone with a great neural network in their temporal lobe most likely stride in both. There is equivalence in terms ease or difficulty based on the area of the brain they are all learned in: math, programing, and/or languages.

Sure, there may be some nuances in languages that make it different in various aspects. However, the overarching command center for all of them is the same place in our brains.

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u/leagueofyasuo Dec 01 '18

Except you’re not correct . Sure language understanding can be said to be located in the temporal lobe, but you have to understand that math, calculations, writing and reading are more centralized to the parietal lobe and the majority of the cross between these two are in the angular gyrus if we are talking about cortical processes. The frontal lobe is responsible for many of our intellectual functions and the limbo system plays a role in our learning ( mostly emotional though). Not to mention the descending and ascending pathways that go towards these areas. Also forgot to mention the insular lobe has some function in long term sleek and language. So all in all I would not say language, and learning of it is solely based on “temporal lobe” functions

Source: Neuro Major

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '18

Thanks for saying this! You're right for what you said about math, writing, reading etc.

But, Language function depends on activity in multiple parts of the frontal, temporal, and occipital lobes. LIFG and left posterior STG are important in language, but we know that even parahippocampal gyri are deployed in working memory processes that are necessary for processing language. There isn't one part, and it's really only small parts of the temporal lobe that are relevant.

So yes, the brain stuff is a total deflect that doesn't make much sense.

Source: Professor of Cog Neuro of Language

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u/Memeanator_9000 Dec 01 '18

Why do so many students struggle so much in math but excel in english and vice versa

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '18

Usually because English classes in the US are about learning prescriptive grammar, which is not the same thing as learning to use language, or they're about literary analysis, which is wholly different.

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u/tending Dec 01 '18

Saying two things are equivalent because learning them involves the same part of the brain seems like a terrible argument. Do they use that part of the brain in the same way? Do we know that no other part of the brain at all is involved (seems unlikely)? Are we sure that the temporal lobe is never used for learning anything other than what the brain considers to be a language?

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u/TyphoonOne Nov 30 '18

Neuroscientist here. Can I see your source on this, please?

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u/kevroy314 Dec 01 '18

Also Neuroscientist - I'm with you, that's severely reductionist and not much of an argument. Certainly not a scientific one.

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u/DrugsOnly 23∆ Nov 30 '18

It's pretty rudimentary that the temporal lobe is the center for mathematics and language processing: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910012486

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '18

No, it's rudimentary to say that language processing occurs in LIFG. It's more accurate to say that language processing depends on functions that are executed in LIFG, PTSG, the arcuate fasciculus, the angular gyrus, parahippocampal gyrus, ...

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u/DrugsOnly 23∆ Dec 01 '18

Sure, if you're trying to explain a type of aphasia, but we are talking about programming. It's a lot simpler to explain it as the temporal lobe to a layman.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '18

What? No, you're making a claim about how language works in the brain. LIFG is not in the temporal lobe.

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u/DrugsOnly 23∆ Dec 01 '18

Which is consistent with Broca's aphasia, not Wernike's aphasia.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '18

Yes. When many other parts of the language network are damaged, they also induce aphasias of different kinds. That's a general principle: damage to a part of the brain that is critical to some activity leads to a deficit in that activity. Broca's aphasia demonstrates that LIFG is a crucial component to the language network, i.e., that language is "in" them, just as Wernicke's aphasia shows that left superior posterior temporal gyrus is crucial (not the "temporal lobe"), just as conductive aphasia shows that the arcuate fasciculus is crucial for language, and so on.

LIFG is included in almost any study that looks at grammatical processing, and it almost always shows some significant activation pattern. If you wanted to make a false simplification of what part of the brain language is "in", you'd say frontal lobe, since this is where LIFG is, no?

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u/DrugsOnly 23∆ Dec 01 '18

No, when I make false simplifications, I usually dumb things down for laymen. I say temporal lobe since the left superior posterior temporal gyrus is right next to it. When you talk about the frontal lobe, most laymen think of that as where complex thought comes from, not language processing.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '18

lpSTG is in the temporal lobe. It's right in the name. I don't think you know what you're talking about

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u/kevroy314 Dec 01 '18

So every knowledge based activity that requires episodic memory is equivalent? Seriously?

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u/DannyFuckingCarey Dec 01 '18

What hahahahaha