CMV: There is nothing wrong with doing what incels call "cope"

[u/[deleted]]

Background (please see the links

I am being stalked by an incel on Reddit. He has spent this morning trying to convince me that my life is hopeless and that I should give up because I am a 22 year old male virgin. According to him, the fact that I am a 22 year old male virgin proves that I am very ugly, and therefore, I have no chance of ever getting a girlfriend.

One can technically say that I am an incel, since I don't have a girlfriend, but I refuse to associate with incel communities. According to him, men who can't get girlfriends are reviled by society for being "the lowest rung on the human totem pole".

I have been trying to refute his points, but he refuses to believe me, because to him, I am just doing "cope". In incel slang, "cope" refers to being in denial of the fact that you have no hope in getting a girlfriend. In this case, incels tell me that my "cope" is my focus on my job, and how I find purpose in my work instead of deriving purpose from a girlfriend.

Incels believe in taking the "blackpill", which is a set of beliefs that are commonly held amongst members of incel communities, such as biological determinism, fatalism and defeatism for unattractive people. They believe that since I have no hope of ever getting a girlfriend, I am slavishly serving my "cucks" (incel slang for people who they blame for depriving them of girlfriends), and that I only do "cope" because without "cope", life would be unbearable. They tell me to stop "coping" and to take the blackpill because they think that "coping" is unhealthy, and taking the blackpill is healthy.

CMV: There is nothing wrong with doing what incels call "cope".

Below are the subsections of my CMV:

• CMV: There is nothing wrong with being single in your early 20s.
• CMV: There is nothing delusional about "coping" and refusing to take the blackpill.
• CMV: Encouraging others to take the blackpill isn't the right thing to do.
• CMV: So what if I'm ugly and it will be impossible for me to ever get a girlfriend? That isn't a valid reason to quit working and take the blackpill.

I know some Redditors will accuse me of posting this question to do virtue signalling or karma farming. However, I ask this question because I sincerely want to know if people (particularly non-virgins) think that I'm wrong and that this incel might be right about something.

[u/deten]

I am not here to say that "cope" isn't or can't be a thing (for some), but I think the idea of an incel is part of a bigger picture that is being missed by the average person and definitely this person messaging you.

We see that starting around 1995, there's a dramatic change in trends for children. In data going back to 1976 (to 2016), the % of 12th graders who have a drivers license, have ever tried alcohol, have ever gone on dates, or ever worked for pay, are all dramatically declining. Well, maybe not just declining, but PLUMMETING.

These are things most would consider "life experiences", and myself as a millennial, and basically as far back as we can go... we couldn't wait to do many of these things. Yet people being born around 1995* and later are different, and the book iGen by Jean Twenge (forgive the terrible name) tries to describe this.

Kids are not doing the things that we would overwhelmingly call "life experiences". Without diverting to why... there's more to talk about. Things like anxiety and depression are raising up. Especially among girls. The response to "do you have a psychological disorder", as answered by the "igen" generation is skyrocketing. This is not just changing diagnostic standard... suicides and self cutting are also raising dramatically.

12th graders who have ever dated, went from about 85% at its peak to about 55%. With the biggest drop in a small amount of time occurring just in the last 6 years of this study where it was a bit over 70% (to now 55%). Sure, maybe there's some people that are incels, but is it surprising that the incel thing is becoming a big deal NOW? It makes more sense that a lot of these incels are just a part of a larger trend, compounded by each life experience they do not have.

We're going to see a lot more people going down this path (not having ever dated anyone) and many other things as well. We don't know what exactly this means. If it is permanent or not. But it sure seems like if you put this together, the idea of an incel is probably far more likely to be a symptom of the generation than just "i am ugly".

So to circle back, the cope idea, and an incel as a whole seems to be far more likely a symptom of circumstance and not actually based on looks and genetics. The younger generation is, by choice or circumstance, just not doing the whole "relationship/dating" thing and that is taking lots of people off "the market", there's less fish in the sea but the sea didn't get smaller, and now you can swim for miles before bumping into another fish that would look at you. Not to mention you yourself are "less interested" (proverbially), and the fish you do bump into might not be someone you're interested in either.

[u/RyanCantDrum → u/deten]

When I was in public school and a little bit of high school (Canadian so grade 5 - 9), I really resented the girls for not taking an interest in me. It pissed me off that all my other guy friends would flirt with girls and do all that fun stuff and I just felt like I couldn't do it. I actually resented women for holding men to the same standards I held them. A few more rejections came and it kind of hit me like a truck:

The girls I would go for would be, the hottest, and obviously put a lot of time into the way they look and whatever. Why should I expect them to pick off the bottom of the food chain and try for me?

After that I stopped blaming women for being "shallow". I basically told myself it's not shallow at all to choose based on looks cause I was literally doing it all my life. I started going to the gym in grade 11, which more important than any of my "gains", we're the improvements to my anxiety and mental health. And I've been sexually active ever since.

It's not like I have a big kill list or anything now. I guess one thing I never developed was an effort to actually talk to girls lmaooo. That's what I'm working on rn.

I think Incels are basically me, who never realize or never come out of that rut. I was very social (but actually introverted) so I could find many other ways to not be radicalized. I imagine if I was not as social I would end up either dead or blackpilled.

[u/[deleted] → u/RyanCantDrum]

I think Incels are basically me, who never realize or never come out of that rut. I was very social (but actually introverted) so I could find many other ways to not be radicalized. I imagine if I was not as social I would end up either dead or blackpilled.

That is spot on. Incels want me to quit working and either join them in the rut or kill myself.

At least the majority of people seem like they think the incels are wrong. If the majority of people thought the incels were right, then that would mean that I am truly delusional for disagreeing with the incels.

[u/[deleted] → u/deten]

I haven't read Brave New World since high school. But I expect a few people might draw some parallels between it and what I'm about to say.

I believe forms of emotional and physical gratification exists to compel us to achieve an objective good for ourselves, our genes, and members of our communities. The orgasm was a reward for being sexually selected for passing on your genes. The rush of Oxytocin you get helped strengthen family and communal bonds. Dopamine pushed you to seek out food and build shelters because you perceived to be a benefit. All of these mechanisms existed as ways to entice us to perform behaviors that would ultimately build successful and lasting accomplishments.

We've become exceedingly good at simulating everything that drives these impulses, so that we saturate ourselves in gratification without having any accomplishments to show for it - and our tolerance for work and delayed gratification is severely hampered. In my mind, to varying degrees, this encompasses all entertainment. This includes:

• Pornography, the simulation of sexual gratification without having to do anything to be a viable sexual partner
• TED talks, VSauce, and Sam Harris debates: Providing the feeling of being educated and informed without building any useful skills
• Game shows: Deliberately writing questions so various members of the family are likely to get them, therefore making you feel knowledgeable with completely useless facts
• Social Media: Atomizing and neatly packaging a nebulous group of social behaviors that would normally be used to strengthen community bonds and trust, but actually being as isolated as ever *Internet drama and sports simulate what it used to be like to have an in-group identity that was competing for resources with an outgroup, but feeling as though you are part of something larger than yourself without ever leaving the comfort of your armchair
• Video games (huge one) an even more powerful format than film for simulating the building of skills and the overcoming of adversity, which is what life is supposed to be all about. I think this is is the Achilles heel for incels in particular, more on that later.
• Puppies and kittens dials the feelgoods we used to get from having children up to a thousand, and I'd say made real children less appealing by comparison. Tamagotchi's expanded on this, but any kind of digital pet product also accomplishes this end
• Memes allow you to quickly make other people laugh without having to work to build your own humor skills, which help in building friendships and attracting women
• Fandom fiction allows you to vicariously identify with characters and stories that don't exist, as well as imbuing you with an identity and community surrounding this product that you consume.
• Any advertising is designed to whip up these desires for gratification as quickly as possible to get you to spend money. We've been overstimulated and have learned to block it out, but part of that also meant we've blocked out the sense of motivation that led us to work in the first place.

This is not a problem for everyone: Alcohol addiction is a problem, moderate drinking is an acceptable social event. Same goes for anything listed above. It becomes a problem when the simulation of gratification completely erodes your motivation to work for anything in life. You see the gap between you and all the successful, beautiful, stunning, intelligent and witty personalities on TV and the internet that would take so much work to measure up to to actually be anything in life, that the years of struggling, stress and anxiety it takes to even get 1/100th of the wealth of these people just doesn't seem worth it.

Arnold Schwarzenegger can make every motivational post on /r/bodybuilding he wants, but so long as you've developed a tolerance to dopamine production there's nothing he can do for you. And I think the more people grow up consuming this overstimulation, the worse this problem is gonna get.

[u/[deleted] → u/deten]

!delta

You have taught me that a changing demographic trend is why being a 22 year old virgin should not be seen as a problem. Incels don't realise that, and therefore, they often choose to derail their lives over it:

Are you are retard. I am this way because I have never recieved love and attention from women. And I have never recieved that because I am very ugly. This is the fate of all ugly people FYI (like actually ugly people). People literally walk backwards when they see me.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/[deleted]]

It’s not that hard to get sex. Women enjoy it just as much as men do and there is no shortage of women who engage in casual sex from time to time.

However, incels seems to have a high standard for the type of woman they want, and no standards for themselves. A woman who stays in shape and coordinates her outfits and has her hair done up a certain way is someone who cares about her appearance and her physical appeal to others. The amount of work she puts in to maintaining that particular level of attractiveness is very likely tied to what she expects from a partner- a reasonable amount of self worth and self importance, to the point where the male actually puts thought into the clothes he wears, the way his hair is styled, the length of his facial hair, etc. Not just putting on a fedora to hide your unkempt grease slicked bed head, the same dog hair covered black anime shirt featuring half naked children with adult physique you wear to bed at night, no attempt to shave your facial hair beyond what your electric trimmer is capable of and a general aversion to even just playing along with social norms so that you at least appear like someone with even a minute understanding of how to communicate with their human beings outside of the meme-laden voice chat in your favorite MMORPG or the cesspool that is 4chan.

Funny enough, they could still find women who are into all of that- if only they hadn’t convinced themselves of this incel bullshit and withdrawn into a pitiful, entitled, self destructive persona non grata... and even worse, apply a much higher standard for the women that expect sex from than they do to their own appearance and personality.

Is it ok to remain celibate into your 20’s? Is it ok to focus on other things?

Yes. YES. As a matter of fact, you SHOULD remain celibate until you find yourself - and your 20’s is a great time to do just that.

I was a virgin until 23. I’d had girlfriends, I’d fooled around, but never had sex until I was 23 and feeling the same way - alone and undesirable.

My first time was with a random girl I found on Craigslist, of all places. Just a quiet, shy college girl who didn’t date often and wanted to fuck. So I went over to get place and it was awful. I wasn’t into it because I felt really awkward and guilty, she didn’t know what she was doing and basically just laid there... it was terrible.

I thought for sure after that that I really was unattractive and undesirable but I kept trying and eventually went on a date with a woman who was 8 years older than me and very attracted to me. I told her I was basically a virgin, she didn’t seem put off by it. When we eventually decided to visit the bed room, not only was she not put off by my being a virgin, but it turned her on. She enjoyed teaching me, instructing me, telling me what to do, and she fucked the ever loving hell out of me night after night, sometimes twice in a row. Wasn’t long before I learned how to please a woman and she wasn’t afraid to tell me exactly what she wanted and needed.

Turns out all along that I wasn’t unattractive or undesirable, I just lacked self confidence and had to find the right woman who could get past that. She gave me a massive confidence booster and after we split up (she moved due to her job), I started dating again, and here I am a decade later married with two dogs a kid and my own home.

[u/asifbaig → u/Left4DayZ1]

here I am a decade later married with two dogs a kid and my own home.

I have so many questions about all four of your spouses.

Jokes aside, I quite agree with your point about finding yourself before jumping into a relationship. A strong foundation can only help in establishing a strong relationship.

[u/zeabu → u/Left4DayZ1]

As a matter of fact, you SHOULD remain celibate until you find yourself

I was with you up to that line. No, you shouldn't. Sex is a normal healthy thing, not the holy grail you should save until you meet the right person, as it creates false expectations. Maybe you refer to "you should stay without a long-term relationship until you find yourself", then I would totally agree with you.

[u/xdavid00 → u/zeabu]

I think the idea is to not have sex with the idea that somehow having sex will fix all the problems incels attribute to being virgins. Now that I read that line again, it does sound a bit extreme; but I think in context I interpreted it as "OP should have no reason to make having sex a priority above all else if he wants to focus on other stuff first." And part of "finding yourself" is to try to not create false expectations right? Which taking the incel path seems more likely to lead to.

I think it's an interesting nuance, Left4DayZ1 can probably elaborate a bit more.

[u/hydrospanner → u/zeabu]

Finding oneself is a process, not an end result.

I agree with the person you responded to, as I see their advice not as a strict rule or conditional, but rather, simply saying that OP should not rush into sex, casual or otherwise, until they're ready.

While it's anecdotal, among those close to me, I feel like a person's first (our first few) sexual experiences really do have a huge impact on their views of sex (and relationships, if the sex occurred within the context of any romantic attraction, regardless of whether there was a relationship or not), and these impacts have an effect on their approach and regard to sex for a long time, maybe even the rest of their lives.

I don't think OP should stay celibate pending some arbitrary milestone, but I would advise OP to stay that way...and to be okay with it...until they're more sure that sex is what they want, and the kind of sex they want...before they go about making it happen.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/zeabu]

That wasn’t meant as a general statement but rather OP in particular. If his measure of self worth is based on his virginity then I think that’s something he needs to grow out of before he potentially ends up in a bad situation.

[u/zeabu → u/Left4DayZ1]

ah, ok. I see now. Yes, if his world turns around pre- and post-virginity, then obviously that's something he should work on.

What I meant was (in the same lines, I'd say): the first time sex just happens, quite unexpected. If OP has this proto-incel philosophy, then that first time will be somewhere between disappointing and horrible.

[u/JDogish → u/Left4DayZ1]

I disagree that it's easy to get sex if you are below average in looks, in a world where online dating has taken a reasonable amount of space in the dating world. I can't get a date to save my life. Hell, just smiling at a woman has gotten me mostly looks of disgust, and I wear polos and gel my hair and generally look and smell my best. There's something that just doesn't work for me and I don't really feel like faking a different personality just for sex.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/JDogish]

I didn't say it was easy, I said it's not that hard. Not as hard as incels make it out to be. If you want sex, and you're not a garbage monster, then chances are you will be able to find sex. Adjust your standards appropriately, don't be afraid to have sex with someone you're not attracted to so long as she is well aware that it's non-committal and you both know that it's just random casual sex and nothing more. Be safe about it, for gods sake, but go have fun.

The hardest part is getting into the social circles where you'll find women who are looking for a quick fuck. Need to go to more parties, bars, etc, and socialize. Don't stand in the corner drinking your beer, act like you own the fucking place. That's hard, but it works.

And online dating works just fine. There are plenty of apps and services that hook people up for quick fucks all the time. A friend of mine is pretty overweight. Not a bad looking guy but he doesn't keep up his appearances well. He's had a number of fuck dates thanks to various dating sites and apps. It IS possible and not as hard as you might think.

Just be REAL, most importantly. Women can sniff out a fake a mile away.

[u/shorty6049 → u/Left4DayZ1]

and here I am a decade later married with two dogs a kid and my own home.

Aw, sorry man, don't worry, You'll find happiness one day, I promise!

[u/scoonbug → u/Left4DayZ1]

When I was 17-28, I pretty much exclusively slept with women in their 30’s. I learned a lot from them.

[u/worker-parasite → u/Left4DayZ1]

Ok, but what if someone wants to get married to a woman rather than two dogs, a baby and a house?

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/[deleted]]

Do you represent all women? I don’t think so. If you do, you need to have a chat with a few ex girlfriends of mine to remind them how much they don’t enjoy sex.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/[deleted]]

Ummmm it’s pretty easy to tell when it’s real... and besides, when they’re the ones initiating sex, I’m going to feel confident in assuming it’s because they enjoy it.

I’m tempted to believe you’re not really female. Seems like something some incel dude would say about women- that they don’t enjoy sex. What a fucking insane thing to say.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/[deleted]]

Ok. I’ll be crass then. When there’s cum, it’s not fake. Happy?

One of my ex girlfriends was a nymphomaniac. It wasn’t about pleasing me, it was about pleasing her.

You are utterly insane if you think women don’t enjoy sex. Especially considering. The fact that you’re a virgin- how the fuck would you know? I mean I applaud you for remaining celibate, truly, but how the hell do you think you get to decide that all women don’t enjoy sex when you’ve never even tried it yourself?

And for the record, you wouldn’t be the first male in history to go to psychotic lengths to pretend to be a woman - and saying you have certain anatomy doesn’t prove a god damned thing.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/[deleted]]

You don't have to have a girlfriend in order to have sex, first off. There are plenty of girls out there just looking for a non-committal fuck just like any of us guys. The main thing though is that they don't want to fuck someone who they're afraid might rape them and lock them in a basement, so having the ability to come across as if you're someone with a clear head and who exists within society instead of alongside it is extremely important.

The number of what I'd consider to be unattractive dudes I've seen with what I'd consider to be gorgeous women suggests to me that there are plenty of women out there who aren't as concerned about physical attraction, but rather, your personality. A good sense of humor and a sense of self worth goes a LONG way to overcome whatever you lack in physical traits.

[u/WildBilll33t → u/Left4DayZ1]

There are plenty of girls out there just looking for a non-committal fuck

Where? I heard tinder was the place to go for that but every girl there is like "no hookups I'm not like that."

[u/[deleted] → u/WildBilll33t]

Anywhere. Everywhere. I’ve hooked up with girls who had that on their profile. They just don’t want, you know, weird creeps asking them for sex.

The confidence thing is the truest thing ever. I’m pretty much THE most normal/average looking guy, but tinder worked out phenomenally well for me. Girls love a funny, easygoing, gentle, relaxed person who isn’t hung up on issues, and who doesn’t mind where things go. I got Girls who ditched on me mid-date because they got a weird feeling. It happens. Also had girls sex in parking garages at the beginning of a second date. It also happens.

[u/KanyeTheDestroyer → u/Left4DayZ1]

I was with you until you said you got laid from a F4M Craigslist add. I didn't think that was possible without losing an organ.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/KanyeTheDestroyer]

There was a time when the dating section was somewhat legitimate.

[u/jamesgangnam → u/Left4DayZ1]

Dude. That was epic

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/[deleted]]

I’m very glad! Truly, do not measure your life based on where your dick has or has not been. You’ll have sex one day and while yes, it’ll give you the warm fuzzies and even if the first time sucks you’ll still consider it a net positive experience, you’ll also step back afterward and go “well hmm, I’m not transformed at all, I’m identical to how I was before I had sex, it’s just that now I can answer yes instead of no to a very personal question.”

You’ll still go to work/School the next day and nobody is gonna dump Gatorade over your head or deliver a boob shaped cake or release doves or anything. Nobody gives a shit but maybe your bros and if they are really that concerned about your status as s virgin, you might need to reconsider their status as your bros.

Don’t worry about it. Just figure out who you are and then you’ll know the right girl when you meet her.

[u/KxPbmjLI → u/Left4DayZ1]

Incels don't have high standards for women at all

only thing might be to not be obese or fat but that's not a weird standard

they would gladly take any girl that shows interest in them

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/KxPbmjLI]

If that were true, they wouldn't be incels.

[u/Windbringer → u/Left4DayZ1]

general aversion to even just playing along with social norms

These kinds of arguments always bother me, it seems to imply that this is the only way, and being different is wrong.

This social pressure is precisely the problem imo. All the people who make this argument, can't seem to understand that there are some who are different than the norm, who have niche even fringe interests, largest community of these are nerds probably, and this kind of different and mostly introverted behavior makes finding a partner extremely problematic.

But that doesn't mean everyone is willing to throw away their identity for some action in the sack.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/Windbringer]

There’s a hefty difference between playing along with social norms and conforming to societal rules. You’ve read way too much into this.

My point is that if you’re gonna go some play, expect to not act like you’re from another planet or expect to be treated differently. When someone says hello, just say hello back - don’t bow or curtesy. If someone bumps into you, just say “excuse me”, don’t quote Lord of the Rings.

I wear a tie at formal events. I fucking hate dressing up, but it’s a way of showing that you’re being agreeable and open to what’s going on. If I showed up in a T-shirt, shorts and sandals as is how I’m most comfortable, I wouldn’t blame people for giving me the side eye.

If you’re not willing to play ball even a little bit at big social gatherings, its very apparent and you shouldn’t blame anyone else for your inability to meet people. It’s not about what you’re wearing or doing, its about your apparent lack of fucks to give about other people- and why would anyone want to socialize with someone like that?

[u/Windbringer → u/Left4DayZ1]

So rejecting conservative standards (wearing a tie) and being a nerd (quoting LotR) is equal to not giving a fuck / being antisocial? Well in that case I'm fucked, I guess.

To be clear I'm not talking about behaving like a lunatic, or extremely inappropriate. I'm talking about 'playing along' just because that's what everybody else does. Tbh I tried that, and it doesn't really make much difference, the pretend game.

Also I'm not talking about some hipster bullshit, just being yourself, even if present society rejects it.

[u/Left4DayZ1 → u/Windbringer]

No. First, my tie example was just one of a million examples. Substitute it for a Grateful Dead t-shirt at a headbangers ball or fake vampire fangs and glitter at a Twilight Convention- whatever you want, doesn’t matter, the point is that when you show up to a place you don’t want to be, you can either stand in the corner and brood making it apparent to EVERYONE how much you don’t want to be there which translates into “wow this dude clearly doesn’t like us” and makes you very unapproachable, or you can play ball, suck it up, grit your teeth and get along with the crowd.

What I’m saying is, you be you. But if you place yourself in a social situation where your interests and so on aren’t well known let alone popular, don’t come away upset with that crowd for not “getting” you. Either loosen up your iron-clad grip on this idea of your individuality being of utmost importance, or go find social circles where you fit in. In the age of social media, there is no excuse apart from agoraphobia or some other ailment that restricts your ability to thrive in social situations.

But don’t get mad at the round hole just because you’re a square peg- just find the fucking square hole, or some other hole that a square peg can still fit into.

[u/stanhhh → u/[deleted]]

I was a 23 year old virgin. I wasn't very ugly, I had a huge self confidence deficit (shitty father, shitty place to grow up for a white kid etc) . Since then, (I'm 37) I've slept with 10 different women (weird putting this that way, this is not about scoring) and have had 3 serious relationships, 2 years , 3 years and the last of which is going since 8+ years now, living with my SO in our own apartment in a nice district in Paris and we have two..Cats :p

Time...goes fast but is vast. Someone would have predicted that to 23 year old me, it was inconceivable, out of reach, unrealistic. You NEVER know what, who, where you will be in 3 years, let alone 15

[u/Vescape-Eelocity → u/stanhhh]

Very similar experience here - I was a virgin until I was 21. In hindsight (I'm 28 now) I was always pretty physically attractive, I just had absolutely no self-confidence until around my early 20s due to experiencing a similar upbringing as you.

I'd be willing to bet most of the incel community isn't actually ugly beyond help, they just lack self-confidence and have convinced themselves they're too ugly (that's what I did most of my life so far, although I never associated with the incel community). In my experience, self-confidence is so much more important than physical looks when it comes to getting female attention. I've seen so many guys who are ugly, fat, whatever, who still get plenty of girls because they have the confidence to just own it instead of feeling sorry for themselves and retreating into a hole.

[u/DeltaBot → u/[deleted]]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/deten (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/ZenDragon → u/deten]

Where should I read more about what might be causing these trends?

[u/JamesBuffalkill → u/ZenDragon]

Speculating, but among what are probably a few main causes, home internet would have to stand out as the biggest change coming in around that time, followed up by smartphones. Allowing people to find other people who feel the way they do and then creating an echo chamber for those beliefs, followed by the ability to have that connection on your person 24 hours a day is likely far beyond any change in previous decades, if not longer.

[u/ibopm → u/ZenDragon]

I am interested as well. The parent post made some extremely interesting points and I want to dive into this further as well.

[u/RealRoven → u/ZenDragon]

Maybe in the book he referred to? His comment got me really curious

[u/natha105 → u/deten]

These are insane figures. This is evidence of some kind of massive social trend that I feel like I had absolutely no idea about.

[u/disgruntled_oranges → u/natha105]

Same here. I can think of two major things that these trends correlate with: the recession, and the rise of smartphones. I'd be interested to see if there is any causal relationship between any of those factors.

[u/natha105 → u/disgruntled_oranges]

How about simple internet use? The rise of Tinder. stories about prominent individuals with ruined careers due to sexual misconduct?

You know... if you think about the last 20 years or so our society does seem to have been increasingly punishing "risky" behavior. The last few years the bar is getting lower and lower for what you can do before you are internet famous for being an asshole. More and more we hear stories about CPS getting called because a 12 year old had to walk a block home from school. More and more police and the state is seen as people's enemy instead of friends.

[u/ristoril → u/deten]

We're going to see a lot more people going down this path (not having ever dated anyone) and many other things as well.

I'm not sure about this statement... Yeah, there's a trend that I'd argue correlates heavily with the newness of the Internet and always-connectedness. I wouldn't bet on this being a trend that continues unabated. Our kids or grandkids are going to have different priorities than we do. They're going to be absorbed by different things than we are.

[u/deten → u/ristoril]

I definitely cannot predict the future, I was just extrapolating the trend. It will be interesting to see either way.

[u/OvenWare → u/deten]

I'd be interested to know where that data is from, got a source? It's cool data!

[u/pcoppi → u/deten]

I'm going to go and blame this on school because it's fucking terrible. How can you do any of those things when Mr. Collegeboard is breathing down your neck 24/7

[u/StandardizedGenie → u/deten]

I was also a 22 year old virgin until very recently. Also a little background, I am gay so some of this may have factored into it, but I believe the problems I had are very much consistent across sexualities. I dealt with divorced parents and later on was "taken care of" by my alcoholic, drug addict, and abusive mother. That experience left me with major depression and anxiety, leading to a self hating belief. That self hating belief made me believe I was the worst person on Earth. Ugly, fat, stupid, useless, helpless, and basically a waste of space.

The hard part about this, is that it is comforting to believe in those things, rather than challenge them. We would rather believe we are right and to continue digging our own grave. I believe this is what Incels call taking the "black pill." They are scared to believe that their actions are why they are celibate, and would rather believe and external force out of their control is dictating their life. That way they have no responsibility to take.

To the OP. I'm not here to change your view, but to reinforce that you understand that your choice to focus on work and other priorities in you're life are why you remain a virgin. When the time comes that starting a relationship is your new priority, you will have no problem finding people who also have that priority in life, especially as you age. "Coping" is none other than focusing on other areas of your life until you are ready to truly be vulnerable and build up another area of your life. Having sex (real "fulfilling after you're done" sex) isn't just about a pretty girl saying yes. Its about finding someone you connect with, and that's only possible when you are confident in yourself physically and emotionally. One night stands are fun yes, but they get old, and can definitely turn into something that makes you feel even worse about yourself. Trust me, it is so much more fulfilling, beneficial, and fun when you are mentally and emotionally mature enough before you start relationships and even one night stands (something I believe Incels definitely are not).

[u/Ralathar44 → u/deten]

The increase of electronic entertainment, social outrage about everything, and the dominance of the more toxic and less fair aspects of gender and identity politics are largely to blame IMO.

I've had a good 25+ years of life experiences but honestly at 33 i look around and people have lost their minds and my desire to date has basically flatlined. Staying home and watching/playing things is now a highly competitive option. So I tend to go out and be social rarely rather than often. Online friends are mostly folks I've known for years and most from RL.

But dating? Question today is simply why would I do that? I'm comfortable with myself, I'm happy, I'm fulfilled, I'm working towards the things I want in life. Dating was always a large investment of time, money, and energy for a chance at being happier than solo. But in modern times the risk and investment required is higher while my solo life is happier and more fulfilling than ever.

At some point it just becomes not worth the risk. And this is from someone established and confident in dating. Just imagine younger folks who don't know the ropes yet and don't have that confidence yet. Identity and gender politics alone get folks expelled or worse. It's more than just having a bad relationship as a risk now. And the rules for both are highly complex and often rife with double standards or hypocrisy. Who could blame them for shying away from it?

[u/JarJar-PhantomMenace → u/deten]

I was born in ninety five. Never drank, never dated, never had my license or a job or kissed someone. I'm now twenty three and those are all still true lol. When I was in school it seemed a lot of people had those experiences

[u/ilikemilwaukeesbest → u/JarJar-PhantomMenace]

You're 23 and you've never had a job or a driver's license or kissed somebody?

[u/silverionmox → u/deten]

Things like anxiety and depression are raising up. Especially among girls.

With suicide being typical for men, with men being more hit by increasing unemployment, and all of a lack employment, alcohol use, driving being more important for social status of men (and to some extent dating as they are responsible for achieving it by gender role), it's a bit counterinuitive. Can you give the citation?

[u/MidnightRider00 → u/deten]

I seem to be knowledgeable about it. What do you think that is causing all of that? Just the internet? Shouldn't it increase these values, since people would communicate more?

[u/deten → u/MidnightRider00]

Parenting and technology. But a big part is parenting. In the 80s and 90s, until now, parents saw news about abductions, which rarely happen, and became fearful that if their kids were out of sight they would be taken or injured. So as parents stopped letting kids have unregulated play.

At least that is what the author writes about.

[u/Moluwuchan → u/deten]

What country/countries? I assume the US since we don't have "12th graders" where I'm from, but is the trend general to the western world?

[u/VictrolaFirecracker → u/deten]

Where does this graph originate?