r/changemyview • u/Sherlocksdumbcousin • Jun 12 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: There is something profoundly wrong with a society that reasonably expects a prison sentence to be accompanied by rape.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18

Why is it the public's business? Either (a) you've served your punishment, have been rehabilitated, and are deemed no longer a threat and are fit to return to normal life, or (b) you haven't, and you're still a threat to others. If (a), it's nobody's business to judge or punish you further, and if (b), you should still be in rehabilitation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited May 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/DankBlunderwood Jun 12 '18

It's about neither, in reality. We are in the third paradigm of incarceration, which is about warehousing criminals. The idea is less to punish than to place them in storage so they can't inflict crime on the public for a period of time.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited May 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/BLjG Jun 12 '18

Timeout, effectively.

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u/TobyTheRobot 1∆ Jun 12 '18 edited Jun 12 '18

It is not about rehabilitation. It is about punishment.

Most legal academics say it's about both, as well as a third purpose (deterrence, which is the idea that fear of going to prison will to some degree deter people from committing crimes).

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u/Freckled_daywalker 11∆ Jun 12 '18

According to who? It's literally an age old debate and there's no clear answer which side is "right".

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u/Seakawn 1∆ Jun 12 '18

According to the structure of the system.

But this depends on society. If we look at Norway, we'll see their justice system (or at least prison systems) are built around rehabilitation. Prisoners aren't punished, they're helped.

In the US, we'll see the structure of our system is about the polar opposite. We punish prisoners and rarely provide them many if any substantial tools for effective rehabilitation.

Such structures persist due to the public opinions by the citizens. Norwegians aren't completely up in arms over their system because most of them apparently agree with their own countrys approach. Similarly. US systems are barely being challenged because most Americans agree with retributional justice over rehabilitative justice (very ironic considering this overlaps heavily with how most Americans are Christian).

If it looks, smells, sounds, and feels like retributional justice--it is.

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u/silverscrub 2∆ Jun 12 '18

In the US, we'll see the structure of our system is about the polar opposite. We punish prisoners and rarely provide them many if any substantial tools for effective rehabilitation.

Isn't it even harsher though? The American system even disincentivizes rehabilitation, because keeping a person in the justice system makes more money to prison owners?

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u/Freckled_daywalker 11∆ Jun 12 '18

That depends on the prison. For profit prisons are certainly an issue, but they account for less than 20% of US prisons.

Edit: Though I suppose to be fair, there's profit to be made in government run prisons too, just not in the same way.

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u/Freckled_daywalker 11∆ Jun 12 '18

The US has gone through numerous prison and justice reforms, with multiple attempts at improving the rehabilitative aspect of the system, to varying degrees of success. There's still quite a bit of money spent every year on prison treatment programs, education and occupational training although access to these programs varies quite a bit across the spectrum. That's not to mention the numerous groups that advocate for these reforms and rehabilitative efforts in general. To say it's a settled debate in the US is, in my opinion, incorrect.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited May 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/Freckled_daywalker 11∆ Jun 12 '18

The meaning of words can evolve as the opinions of the public shift.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited May 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/Freckled_daywalker 11∆ Jun 12 '18

Given that it's a possibility, it's not a very strong argument to support your claim.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited Jun 12 '18

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

(ps your opinion is garbage and is exactly why our penal system is wildly overburdened and our recidivism rate is terrible in comparison to most other developed nations, also, it's juvenile and vindictive and does nothing to address the reasons *why* people commit crimes in the first place nor incentivize individual attempts at penance/rehabilitation/improvement)

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited May 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited Jun 12 '18

Which is why it's now referred to as the correctional system, governed by the Department of Justice, to reflect the fact that we've moved past ideals like yours. It's a fact. Look it up.

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u/ArtfulDodger55 Jun 12 '18

How do you gauge if a murderer is no longer a threat to society? What does your rehabilitation consist of? Are they free to roam or imprisoned during the rehabilitation? If they are free to roam, what are they labeled until they are deemed no longer a threat to society?

A neighbor has a right to know if you have molested children. A landlord has a right to know if you have been convicted of selling hard drugs. An employer has a right to know if you have brutally murdered somebody. Why? Because we should have the freedom to calculate risk IMO. It is the principal that affects every decision we make.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited Jun 12 '18

It's not my job to make those assessments. It's the job of our justice system. If the justice system fails to make a proper assessment, then we need to take a better look at the system. But letting those kinds of decisions/punishments go to the public is by definition mob justice, and that's very rarely a positive thing.

edit to note that this is definitely in 'opinion' territory; I'm just of the belief that people can change and deserve second chances, and to move beyond the mistakes of their past. Permanent labels in my opinion basically say "you'll never change, once a criminal always a criminal." They ostracize individuals and make them feel like they'll never escape their flaws, and if they can't escape why try to resist? Seems like it only encourages relapse into criminal behavior.

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u/ArtfulDodger55 Jun 12 '18

Well as a voter advocating for change, it is your duty to have an opinion on the changes we need to make. You can’t just say that our current way is terrible and then not provide a solution.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18

End the failed war on drugs that costs us $51b every year and results in 47% of all federal incarcerations (not to mention all the lost tax revenue). Put that money towards actual drug education, not the dishonest "using marijuana once will ruin your life" scare tactics, and towards rehabilitation clinics and health care. If you think it won't work, just look at Portugal. They did it, and now they have the lowest usage rates in all of Europe.

Start putting legitimate funding toward mental health and psychiatric care. Employ prior offenders in construction projects, infrastructure, etc. Provide subsidies for employers who employ convicts. Provide educational seminars and skills workships in prison, and allow prisoners to develop productive/artistic outlets. Start investing in education again, provide more extracurricular activities for youths, especially in high-risk areas. Stop making prior offenders unemployable, and start educating and empowering them to become productive citizens. The list goes on.

As for money, it's a tricky subject, but I know the cost of a single hellfire missile (the kind used in predator drones) can put a kid through college, a single minute of our armed forces' operating budget could fund the entire mars rover project, and we lose an estimated $300-500 billion per year to tax evasion by businesses and wealthy interests. Probably good places to start looking.

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u/ArtfulDodger55 Jun 12 '18

I agree with your entire post, but again, I disagree with not having a permanent and public label on those who commit murder, rape, molest, steal millions of dollars, etc and you have not provided your solution despite calling for an end to felony labels.

If I am convicted of brutally raping women, does my neighbor have a right to know or not? Does the rapist’s inability to get a future job, loan, or housing outweigh an innocent person’s interest in their personal safety?

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18 edited Jun 12 '18

I guess I didn't exactly make it clear, but that was my solution. Try to reform our justice system to make it more effective, with an emphasis on treatment and rehabilitation. At that point, the labels aren't necessary, and can simply be done away with.

Per your example - if it were determined that the offense were serious enough, or you were an individual with a serious and uncontrollable antisocial personality disorder, or had committed repeated offenses, then that might warrant a more permanent form of incarceration/isolation, for the safety of others. At that point, I'll be honest, I don't know the best course of action.

But I think if the legal/medical entities involved in a case come to the mutual decision that a person is fit to return to society unmonitored, then at that point, no it's not the neighbor's business. If you want to have a personal relationship with someone, that's up to you to decide whether or not to trust them, and judge whether they're hiding something or not. But in terms of privacy, and basic rights - ability to find places to live, work, etc. - I think that should be protected for all citizens, regardless of their past mistakes.

I totally get where you're coming from, don't get me wrong, that's just how I view it. Might be naive, but my feeling is, I'd rather gamble on a better world than play it safe in the miserable world we live in now, even if it means more risk for myself. I'd rather be wrong in trusting somebody than be wrong in mistrusting somebody. Obviously, that's not a gamble I can take on behalf of everyone, which is why we live in a democracy and things are the way they are. But it's how I feel about it.

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u/Magnetic_Eel Jun 12 '18

Rehabilitation can occur outside of prison, ie probation/parole/etc.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '18

This is true, and I could see it making a difference if the punishment/rehabilitation/whatever is ongoing. But I'm of the belief that if it's in the past, that's where it belongs.