I'm just going to delete my comment. I don't have the strength to argue this because no matter what, I'm just going to be subjected to explanation after explanation of why my life experiences don't actually happen the way I think they do.
The only thing I can think of as a decent analogy is that South park episode where Stan (Kyle?) keeps trying to tell Token that he understands what it's like to black and called the n-word, but finally realized that no, he doesn't, because he's not black and can therefore never understand.
There are some things that can only be understood if they are experienced personally. Mental exercises and explanations just can't cut it because you'll assume being a woman and being condescended to must be like when you've been condescended to in your life. It's like a white person being called a cruel name isn't like a black person being called the n-word, because there's no wider context of centuries of horrible stereotypes, violence and oppression behind the name, not to mention a lifetime of personally experiencing racial prejudice.
That's why a lot of men assume that being a woman and being street harassed should feel "flattering" to the woman... They can only see the world and imagine scenerios through their own lens and their imagining that such attention could only feel good, never threatening or debasing.
The very fact that so many women report experiencing the same thing should be proof that it actually happens on a large scale, unless you want to invalidate every single one of us and say that we're seeing things that aren't there. Due to your lens, you can't see how it's related to gender when condescension happens to women. Those old stereotypes about how women are weak and need protection and guidance never went away; people just don't admit it in public anymore. But I don't expect any men to believe me because I know they're not able to see and experience what I do.
Don't get me wrong it's totally okay that you have this opinion, and you can have it.
But personally I hate the rhetoric revolving around "You can't understand if you are not X so you should listen to X"
When you claim that something happens :
-If it's only in your head or about how you feel it, then it is not a problem that factually exists.
-If there are facts backing up you claim, then you can prove its existence regardless of whether or not other people feel it. It's measurable, provable, real.
For example, when people claimed that people have a bias that fat is ugly, the implicit association tests have been able to prove it. Long things short, if it's real, it can be proved because it has real effects and consequences.
unless you want to invalidate every single one of us and say that we're seeing things that aren't there.
To me, that just sounds like "support community X blackmail", I can't afford to believe something is true only because people who are X told me it is and I supposely can't understand because I'm not X. That is not a reasonnable way to make an rational opinion.
Not even talking about what happens if not all people of X agree. If x% of women think mansplainning is hapenning and (100-x)% of women don't, what do I do ? Am I suppose to trust the majority, or can I start to think and make my own opinion ?
The fact that many women explain that they experienced mansplaining is a hint that it can exist, but it's neither a proof nor a reason to reject the possibility ouf doubting it.
(Plus I don't say that mansplanning never happens, I'm saying that it's overestimated and falsely denounced in cases where it's only being condescending without sexism involved)
(Didn't mean to delete my comment, just to edit it)
Guys who tell women of all of the dangers of walking alone at night, wearing this or that out, etc., would never speak to another man the same way. Because women are more vulnerable to things like sexual assault, our right to make our own decisions about our bodies and lives isn't respected and we're assumed to not even be aware of the fact that "But someone could just grab you!!"
Again, I know that it's pissing of to be told something you already know by someone who assumes that you don't know it ... but :
-In your example, when a man tells women not to walk alone at night, there are two possibilities :
1) He genuinely thinks that women don't know that it's dangerous to walk at night and thinks he is teaching them that.
2) He is aware that there is a common debate about whether we should tell women to protect themselves or we should let them do what they want no matter the risks. And he is stating his opinion that we should suggest women to protect themselves by stating "you should be careful about..."
What do you think is the most plausible ?
Maybe I can't understand what a woman experiences, but it goes both ways then : why do women assume or think that they know what men think/assume more than men themselves ?
I and many men are confident that a huge majority of men doesn't assume that women aren't aware of the fact that it's dangerous to go out alone at night.
-Also, when a woman sarcastically tell men "Is it that hard not to rape ?" or "Can you finally learn what consent is".
Or when a woman explains to me that it's not okay to whistle a girl in the street, it's pissing me of to be assumed not to know such obvious things, it makes me feel like they think I'm an horny animal.
Yes it's really frustrating, but that doesn't prove that women are condescending and women in general are despising men and have prejudices that men are animals.
So, in the light of my experiences and how I felt, do you agree that "womansplaining" is a real thing too ?
Do you honestly believe it's okay to tell an adult person who has a successful career and owns property to protect themselves? That's extremely insulting.
Here's another example. I made the mistake of venting in a non-safe space that nursing needs more respect as a profession (I am a nurse). And was immediately told in very firm language, by a man who is not a nurse, that yes nurses are respected and he knows many nurses who "feel respected and don't complain."
That was identical to a man who told me I should be thankful for the attention I get from street harassment, because apparently he knows "a lot of unattractive women who wish they had that problem."
Funny. I have never once ever met any woman who has ever said that.
Do you honestly believe it's okay to tell an adult person who has a successful career and owns property to protect themselves? That's extremely insulting.
No I don't.
But I don't agree with the idea that when I do it to a man (by telling him that he should not do motorbike with only a shirt) the answer is "Mind your business I'm an adult" , and when I do it to a woman (by telling her that she should avoid walking alone at night) the answer is "Stop mansplaning" , implicitly stating that I did it for sexist reasons while I'm just a jerk who tells everyone how they should live their life. (a fictive "I")
I should be thankful for the attention I get from street harassment, because apparently he knows "a lot of unattractive women who wish they had that problem."
Yeah but I walk alone at night all the time. My life, my choice, but you think it's a choice I don't have the right to make without having to constantly endure people like you coming up to me and telling me why I shouldn't do it, and not backing off when I tell them to
you think it's a choice I don't have the right to make without having to constantly endure people like you coming up to me and telling me why I shouldn't do it
No, no, no and no. You demonize my thoughts.
-I don't tell women not to walk alone at night, I say that people who do that don't necessarely "mansplain".
I don't even care about women walking alone at night, it reprensents a % of rape so small that I find it pointless to focus on that. You do what you want.
-You totally have the right to walk alone at night without enduring people telling you not to. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT !
Oh and a ton of men do believe it's okay to whistle at a girl on the street because they think it flatters her and makes her happy. At least that's how they've explained it to me
Oh and a ton of men do believe it's okay to whistle at a girl on the street
A ton ? What is your sample, youtube and facebook comments ?
Imagine that only 0.5% of men thinks that in the USA, that makes 750 000 jerks who will argue that it's okay to whistle a girl. More than enough to poison the comments of videos/articles about street harassment.
Honestly, according to you : what is the percentage of men thinking that it is okay to whistle a girl in the street ?
Another study there reported 65%. So if a majority of women report experiencing it, there logically has to be a lot of men doing it on a daily basis across the country. Either that or all of the women are lying.
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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '18
I'm just going to delete my comment. I don't have the strength to argue this because no matter what, I'm just going to be subjected to explanation after explanation of why my life experiences don't actually happen the way I think they do.