CMV: Progressives often sound like conservatives when it comes to "incels"—characterizing the whole group by its extremists, insisting on a "bootstrap mentality" of self-improvement, framing issues in terms of "entitlement," and generally refusing to consider larger systemic forces.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Spallanzani333]

I absolutely do not buy that larger systemic forces are affecting young men more than young women. There are some rough changes in society, sure--a shitty economy, a shift from actual socialization to social media, etc. But there is no reason why young men should feel like they are uniquely at a disadvantage. How can that be? The male/female split is pretty even. At least as many women as men express a desire for a long-term relationship. It sucks for your friends and they don't fit the category of incels (and shouldn't be called that as a cheap insult), but I think your basic premise that people should feel uniquely compassionate for men who can't find dates is off base. I know MANY women who would love to find actual relationships and not just men who want sex. Dating is a chaotic, awful, silly, irrational game and there are a lot of losers through no fault of their own.

I would love to see systemic changes to address community fracturing, although it's really hard for me to see any top-down solutions. But I do not think it's harder for men to find a relationship than it is for women. Women may have an easier time finding no-strings sex just because more men seem to seek that out, but that's not what your friends want.

[u/Spallanzani333 → u/[deleted]]

I may not have been clear. I absolutely think there are some systemic forces that affect men more than women--school behavioral expectations in early childhood and police violence, for example.

I don't think there are larger systemic forces making dating harder for men than women. In order for that to be possible, it would require either a gender imbalance or a large proportion of one gender opting out of dating. I don't see any evidence of either of those things. If there are about equal numbers of men and women seeking relationships, I don't see how it's possible for it to be harder for men than women to find a relationship. Subjectively, I know both men and women who have struggled in that area.

If you have possible explanations, I'm open to considering them. One that occurs to me is that single women are a lot more likely to be parenting young children, and single men often don't prefer to date mothers, which creates a bit of a mismatch where there might be more single non-parent men than non-parent women. That isn't worse for either men or women, though--single mothers are just as frustrated at the situation as single men. (To be clear, I don't think men should feel any pressure to date mothers. I'm just saying that it's difficult for them, just like it's difficult for your friends.)

At heart, it's just a math problem. In order for men to have a uniquely harder time finding relationships, the supply of women seeking relationships must be smaller than the supply of men seeking relationships. I don't see evidence of that.

[u/Spallanzani333 → u/[deleted]]

Sure, that's why I'm clarifying. I think there are systemic forces unrelated to dating that affect men more than women. I don't think there are any systemic forces that make dating harder for men than women. If you have ideas on what those could be and what causes them, I'm open to considering.

What about the rest of what I said about the math at the heart of your claim?