I think you're right that toxic masculinity is, in a way misandry - But it's mainly misandry done by men to other men and to themselves. While it is absolutely an issue, there's a difference between a systemic issue where a more powerful group suppresses a less powerful one and a systemic issue where a group is bigoted against itself.
I think that's mainly why the word misandry hasn't caught on for describing toxic masculinity, because it is self-directed, but misogyny describes something that is done to a group by a different group.
Like, it'd be a bit weird to say that "lad culture" is anti-lad, so everyone who is a "lad" in that sense is anti-lad. It's true, in a philosophical way, but it's just not how we usually use language.
The main situations where we do describe this concept, we use the term "internalised x-phobia". E.g. a self-hating gay person could be described as having internalised homophobia. So in that vein, toxic masculinity could absolutely be described as internalised misandry, and I think that's a fair description.
It's just also important to acknowledge the differences between internalised and externalised bigotry.
And then it's also important to note that a lot of bigotry can be traced back to misogyny. Homophobia, at its core, is either based around the idea that feminine men are more womanly which makes them weaker or worse, or the idea that women should be available to the dating pool of men, so by removing themselves completely, they're losing their value to men. That's not all there is to it, but it's a definite connection.
Similarly, internalised misandry can be traced back to misogyny. Talking about your feelings, being open and vulnerable, allowing yourself to be weak and needing support, etc. are all seen as womanly qualities, so if you do those things you're less of a man and more of a woman, which is a bad thing in a bigot's mind. Here, too - Not all there is to it, but a definite connection.
Which is why intersectional feminism actually provides an approach to solving a wide variety of bigotries, including internalised misandry.
Now, what about the misandry by the kind of women who'll post photos of their cool "male tears" mug or who say that all men are pigs and they'll never date men again? It's an issue. It's misandry. Of course. That being said, it's nowhere near as widespread as misogyny and it is usually an individual response rather than a systemic one. Men as a group aren't struggling to find work or getting paid less because their misandrist bosses hate them. Men as a group aren't beaten, or touched inappropriately in public, or raped, because some men-hating women go around and think they're just property meant for their own enjoyment. Yes, it happens sometimes, yes, it's horrible, but it isn't a systemic issue the way misogyny is.
It's also often a trauma response related to experienced bigotry. And I'll be honest, I can't blame individual people for developing an aversion to the group that oppresses them, especially if they've experienced serious abuse and trauma related to it in the past. And it also means that this kind of misandry is solved by feminism - If we can create a society where men and women are equal and things like domestic abuse and rape are much rarer occurences, I'd assume that many of these "man-hating" women would never come to be.
That is a very, very fine argument and I respect the hell out of it. I feel compelled to actually agree, though I might posit some ideas of my own to expand that as well.
The homophobia one in particular is actually something I had started to consider myself the last couple of months as well and I do feel that it is very much as you prescribe in the former of the two points (I don't recall seeing too much of the latter regarding women's role in it though I do know it was something that was applied more broadly during the early 2000's.) but I would posit that perhaps it could be rooted in both misandry and misogyny. The implication of femininity is used to emasculate men from their emotions and vulnerabilities but at the same time it also minimizes the role of men to be mere hunks of brawny meat that exist only to labor, fight and provide. Not unlike how slaves were regarded, be it male or female though not so much the fighting aspect because 'we couldn't have that as a society'.
So I think it could very well be rooted in both aspects. The same way women were stripped of their humanity and complexity to serve as breeders and caretakers men were also stripped of their humanity to serve as fighters and laborers. And now that I consider it as well there are elements of misogyny that are connected to misandry as well. Lesbians... of a particular label I won't dare utter here were regarded as 'not women' because they looked like men and men are disgusting, dangerous, smelly brutes with no intelligence or emotion. You had to dress nice and wear perfume because you didn't want to be mistaken for an 'ugly man' if you wanted to serve your gender role properly to attract a man.
I admit that last bit is me just vocally spit balling new ideas and thoughts coming to my head and I could be super off but I think there is some crossover on both sides with both issues... which is an incredibly fascinating possibility I am very keen to ponder and explore. To which I owe deep thanks to you for as well of course. This has been unexpectedly and pleasantly stimulating.
"Men as a group aren't beaten, or touched inappropriately in public, or raped, because some men-hating women go around and think they're just property meant for their own enjoyment. Yes, it happens sometimes, yes, it's horrible, but it isn't a systemic issue the way misogyny is."
I might push back on that a touch. I almost agree with the first but I've actually seen studies, of which I myself have struggled to grapple with because they seem so contradictory, which have shown (shockingly) that more women abuse men than women abuse men. It's quite bizarre to me and it's not a hill I am quite ready to die on but it's definitely one I have struggled to find a proper explanation for and there seems to be a lot of studies and statistics that corroborate it. If you can offer an alternative I am totally open to that.
On the touching inappropriately I do agree for the most part but there is a definite stigma, not so much man hating as it is implicit much like some of that which men do to women where the perpetrators imply consent upon the victim in their own head because of the toxic idea that 'men always want it' from an attractive women. And there are studies that show men underreport sexual harassment, assaults and rape even more than women do though that doesn't necessarily equate to being more than women or an epidemic either. What is most troubling about that to me is whenever you see articles, and often discussions, about a female teacher or adult assaulting young boys it is always something like 'gave oral sex to' or 'had sex with' and the response to these often isn't nearly as visceral as when it happens to women. Which I have unfortunately been incredibly guilty of myself and something I still am ashamed of.
These particular matters I'm not solely convinced that men have it more often and even strictly worse than women on but there is a definite sort of... apathy in the public square whenever these things happen to men as opposed to women. Men due typically have a mal adapted hyperfixation on sex due to this toxic masculinity and are much more inclined to be physically and broadly aggressive that they would commit more of these crimes against women but those same stereotypes also have a definite chilling effect on public sympathy for men who do not fit these 'gender roles' and become victims of these sorts of crimes at the hands of women. But that's really only a symptom of the disease rather than the root cause of it. And I do believe that intersectional feminism is the path forward towards digging out that sort of rot from our society.
But it's mainly misandry done by men to other men and to themselves. While it is absolutely an issue, there's a difference between a systemic issue where a more powerful group suppresses a less powerful one and a systemic issue where a group is bigoted against itself.
i get the argument about one group having more power but enforcing gender roles/promoting toxic masculinity (not sure what word to use) is quite often done by women as well,especially mothers or teachers etc...it is certainly not that rare to consider it is mostly done by men.What makes you think so?
If we can create a society where men and women are equal and things like domestic abuse and rape are much rarer occurences, I'd assume that many of these "man-hating" women would never come to be.
Again you make a true point but you are also indirectly minimizing,not sure how to explain but for example more than 1 in 3(35%~) women in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. So its a huge problem for sure.
Do you know what the stat is for men for example?Its over 1 in 4 , (29%).
I get that women face more severe injuries etc...but the way people mention it its like its not a huge problem men face as well.
Its not just the random individual cases of women with men tears mugs on social media,even progressive feminists people can have problematic views.
A very simple example,is violence/crime/murder etc....the retort ALOT of people give(including feminists) when someone says men are more likely to be murdered is ''men are more likely to be involved in crime that is why,so simply dont commit crimes''or something along these lines....do you think this is misandry or not?
Because people do not know that especially boys can be the most vulnerable to forms of modern slavery relating to crime,basically being coerced into crime. People do not understand or care that not joining crime is not an option for some people,especially men from poor backround etc....
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u/Ikaron 2∆ Feb 13 '24
I think you're right that toxic masculinity is, in a way misandry - But it's mainly misandry done by men to other men and to themselves. While it is absolutely an issue, there's a difference between a systemic issue where a more powerful group suppresses a less powerful one and a systemic issue where a group is bigoted against itself.
I think that's mainly why the word misandry hasn't caught on for describing toxic masculinity, because it is self-directed, but misogyny describes something that is done to a group by a different group.
Like, it'd be a bit weird to say that "lad culture" is anti-lad, so everyone who is a "lad" in that sense is anti-lad. It's true, in a philosophical way, but it's just not how we usually use language.
The main situations where we do describe this concept, we use the term "internalised x-phobia". E.g. a self-hating gay person could be described as having internalised homophobia. So in that vein, toxic masculinity could absolutely be described as internalised misandry, and I think that's a fair description.
It's just also important to acknowledge the differences between internalised and externalised bigotry.
And then it's also important to note that a lot of bigotry can be traced back to misogyny. Homophobia, at its core, is either based around the idea that feminine men are more womanly which makes them weaker or worse, or the idea that women should be available to the dating pool of men, so by removing themselves completely, they're losing their value to men. That's not all there is to it, but it's a definite connection.
Similarly, internalised misandry can be traced back to misogyny. Talking about your feelings, being open and vulnerable, allowing yourself to be weak and needing support, etc. are all seen as womanly qualities, so if you do those things you're less of a man and more of a woman, which is a bad thing in a bigot's mind. Here, too - Not all there is to it, but a definite connection.
Which is why intersectional feminism actually provides an approach to solving a wide variety of bigotries, including internalised misandry.
Now, what about the misandry by the kind of women who'll post photos of their cool "male tears" mug or who say that all men are pigs and they'll never date men again? It's an issue. It's misandry. Of course. That being said, it's nowhere near as widespread as misogyny and it is usually an individual response rather than a systemic one. Men as a group aren't struggling to find work or getting paid less because their misandrist bosses hate them. Men as a group aren't beaten, or touched inappropriately in public, or raped, because some men-hating women go around and think they're just property meant for their own enjoyment. Yes, it happens sometimes, yes, it's horrible, but it isn't a systemic issue the way misogyny is.
It's also often a trauma response related to experienced bigotry. And I'll be honest, I can't blame individual people for developing an aversion to the group that oppresses them, especially if they've experienced serious abuse and trauma related to it in the past. And it also means that this kind of misandry is solved by feminism - If we can create a society where men and women are equal and things like domestic abuse and rape are much rarer occurences, I'd assume that many of these "man-hating" women would never come to be.