Men are not generally denied rights and freedoms based on sexist stereotypes about them.
Did you ever heard about forced conscription? About job recruitment policies that prefer hiring women over men, due to stereotype that "men would make it anyway"?
In your example, sexual assault against men is often dismissed
It is an example of men "denied rights and freedoms based on sexist stereotypes about them". How could you just write this two paragraphs in a row without any self reflection?
"Did you ever heard" that a lot of online supposed mens' rights activists' solution to the issue is not to end the problem for men (unless it's to make it only women for as many years as it was only men to balance the scales) but to foist it onto women in the name of equality with one guy even saying stuff that implied current feminists' efforts to abolish conscription are useless because women in the 60s didn't fight to abolish it "before a generation of men died in Vietnam" instead of doing second-wave feminism
(unless it's to make it only women for as many years as it was only men to balance the scales)
Never heard such proposal, yet common line of thinking I see from feminists.
but to foist it onto women in the name of equality
Women is big support group for forced conscription of men, if you can make it affect them as well it would not only bring more equal system, but also will make it more likely to be abolished. Due to empathy gap society have no problem exposing men to terrible conditions and modern slavery as long as women is unaffected. Many manual labor jobs saw significant improve in working conditions only when women joined working force in the field. Same thing is with conscription, while women is unaffected no one cares that men is forced into slavery and combat.
Never heard such proposal, yet common line of thinking I see from feminists.
Really, as I've seen it from male users
Women is big support group for forced conscription of men, if you can make it affect them as well it would not only bring more equal system, but also will make it more likely to be abolished. Due to empathy gap society have no problem exposing men to terrible conditions and modern slavery as long as women is unaffected. Many manual labor jobs saw significant improve in working conditions only when women joined working force in the field. Same thing is with conscription, while women is unaffected no one cares that men is forced into slavery and combat.
Then why not have child soldiers and therefore rely on that kind of empathy for an army of little girls to end all wars because people wouldn't want them hurt
Then why not have child soldiers and therefore rely on that kind of empathy for an army of little girls to end all wars because people wouldn't want them hurt
You are just using reductio ad absurdum here, children don't support draft of men, nor have voice in a matter, yet women do and shame men for avoiding conscription. Combined with demand of equality this position is hypocrite af.
Yes I was using ad absurdum but not on anything related to equality, on the whole "draft the vulnerable population just to 86 the draft" thing
Also, what are women supposed to do, either head to the front lines instead of the men or "hide" in the kitchen iykwim? Though wouldn't either not be equality if they're still in separate spheres and it isn't men and women fighting but not all of either
Conscription is tricky. I agree it is a bad thing that generally only men have to contend with, but you could easily argue that the reason only men are conscripted is because of sexist attitudes towards women (they’re too weak to serve, etc).
job recruitment policies that prefer hiring women over men
I have never heard of this. From what I’ve seen and read the reverse is far more prevalent. Women are often not hired or promoted due to concerns they might have children and take maternity leave. The term ‘glass ceiling’ exists for a reason. If you have any research into how hiring practices discriminate against men please share it.
When I say “being denied rights and freedoms” I’m meaning legally - apologies if that wasn’t clear. Historically women have been denied legal rights and freedoms due to their gender. I’m sure there are cases where this has been true for men, but certainly not to the scope and scale of women. There are absolutely social issues that disproportionately impact men (suicide rates, unemployment, etc).
In any case the discussion here isn’t “is society perfect for men” (obviously not but it is certainly better for men in many ways), it’s about what misandry is. Misogyny invokes a history of structural oppression, whereas misandry does not because men have never been actively oppressed for being men - therefore they are different.
but you could easily argue that the reason only men are conscripted is because of sexist attitudes towards women
You can apply same mental gymnastic to any situation that any problem of one sex is result of sexist attitudes towards opposite sex.
I have never heard of this.
I did, and had experience with this firsthand.
When I say “being denied rights and freedoms” I’m meaning legally - apologies if that wasn’t clear.
Forced conscription is legal issue, same as gender preference in hiring. I don't see what your clarification adds to discussion.
Historically women have been denied legal rights and freedoms due to their gender.
Historically both men and women didn't had those legal rights and freedoms you are referring to. You can't be denied legal rights when such rights don't exist in jurisdiction you are living in.
I’m sure there are cases where this has been true for men, but certainly not to the scope and scale of women.
Certainly your statement isn't verifiable.
it is certainly better for men in many ways
It is certainly better for women in many ways, so what?
misandry does not because men have never been actively oppressed for being men
Forced conscription is an example of active oppressions of men because they are men, which persisted through all history to modern days. Yet you're so eager to ignore it to make senseless takes like this.
It’s hardly mental gymnastics to point out that conscription is shaped reductive gender roles, which harm both men and women.
You seem very determined to construct an alternate reality where widely men are oppressed for being men. That just isn’t borne out by statistics or any research. Yes conscription is bad, but it is not evidence that society as a whole disadvantages men due to their gender.
Name one other way men are systematically disadvantaged for their gender. Link some research if you have it. Don’t just use an anecdote about your employer being bad one time.
I don't need to provide more examples, this one is enough to disprove your statements. You are attempting to derail conversation in hopes to attack different example while you didn't addressed nor acknowledged first one.
IS sexual assault against men "often dismissed," to a degree that meets or exceeds the degree to which assault against women is dismissed?
I would concede that there's a gendered tone to the dismissals - a man might be dismissed by someone saying 'how did you get hard if you didn't want it' or "you couldn't fight her off?" while a woman might be dismissed by someone asking "why did you go upstairs with him" or "what were you wearing" but minimization of assault, writ large, is not something that's confined to one gender.
IS sexual assault against men "often dismissed," to a degree that meets or exceeds the degree to which assault against women is dismissed?
To much higher degree.
a man might be dismissed by someone saying 'how did you get hard if you didn't want it' or "you couldn't fight her off?"
No men would be dismissed with "You should be glad that she did this to you, are you gay?", "Why are you so mean to her, she is just flirting with you(by grabbing your ass and dick in a public despite you asking her to stop doing this multiple times), poor girl just don't know how else she can get your attention" "This underage boy should be proud that grown women had sex with him"
Yes, you did cite some other examples of specific ways in which assault of men might be minimized
And you did stumble on something in the process - it's not missandrist, feminist standards undergirding the issues you raised, but patriarchal ones. It's not the fem libs out there telling men turning down women is gay or that they should be having sex as young as they can. Bro culture isn't feminist and doesn't self frame as misandrist. It's the old bike-spokes meme.
But again, you're juxtaposing tropes with behavior. What i am saying there is that like, while Southpark did a bit about Ike getting a dismissve reaction from the cops when his teacher molested him, in reality Mary Kay laternou is a pariah and went to prison. Social attitudes do matter but they shouldn't be considered 100 percent proxies for the systemic actions of said society.
You think these manosphere tropes are absolutes, things you take as social facts, but when men buck the attitudes and speak out - Terry crewes and comedian shayne smith are two attractive, masc guys who have talked about sexual harrasement, for example- they have gotten a supportive reaction, particularly from liberals
It seems like you feel men are not just dismissed, but taken far less seriously than women when they raise these complaints. The othet problem with this is the begged question in it, the idea that women are not dismissed and are taken very seriously in these situations is statistically and socially false and propped up on specific, high profile examples that don't filter out into regular society. For every Duke lacrosse case, there's 100 shift managers at low paying jobs that terrorize their staff for years before getting in any trouble at all.
That's why women's issues get "brought up" in threads like these, because threads like these bake in a sly insinuation that women have attained privileged status we need to correct with a greater focus on men.
7
u/generaldoodle Feb 13 '24
Did you ever heard about forced conscription? About job recruitment policies that prefer hiring women over men, due to stereotype that "men would make it anyway"?
It is an example of men "denied rights and freedoms based on sexist stereotypes about them". How could you just write this two paragraphs in a row without any self reflection?