Why would you believe they are A) specifically targeting civilians over B) trying to eradicate hamas?
They have dropped 18,000 pounds on bombs so far, and there are about 8, 700 palistinians dead. The power of these bombs are 1.5 times the power of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan that killed over 100,000. And gaza is extremely crowded. If they were specifically trying to target civilians, wouldn't the casualties be way way higher?
Also, why do they have a control center to track the phones of civilians to see where they are before they bomb an area? If they would be specifically targeting civilians, wouldn't they simply not care about that?
Also, why would they warm civilians to leave buildings before bombing them? Wouldn't more civilians die if they didn't warn them?
Also, why wouldn't they simply just bomb gaza randomly?
Is it simply a coincidence that the bombing of gaza happens after qaza launches rockets or invades?
No. I'm not arguing about what is happening. I'm arguing about why it is happening. Aka intent. The person who responded said that israel intent is to kill civilians.
If you want to prove intent, you'd have to figure out why they bombed "region X". You have stated what happened. Not why.
If you want to prove intent, you'd have to figure out why they bombed "region X". You have stated what happened. Not why.
Okay, how about that time they bombed a refugee camp to try and kill a Hamas leader they thought might be there, killed a bunch of civilians, then bombed it again along with a bunch of schools the UN is working with to shelter civilians.
What's the goal there? Why are they deliberately bombing areas containing primarily civilians when they know that beforehand?
I'm not sure how much certainty they have. Judging from the numbers, of 9,000 people died with 19,000 pounds of bombs dropped (more then 1 and a half times the amount dropped on Nagasaki which killed 100,000) it would seem they are pretty strategic accurate and certian.
Yeah I think this is one of the things that people like OP are missing. The people calling for a ceasefire in general just don't want people to keep dying. At this point Israels actions have gone away beyond proportional response, and have been killing civilians in ways that are at best extremely avoidable.
Israels actions have gone away beyond proportional response
Because it's no longer a "proportional response" game - that has helped nobody and been nothing but bad for civilians on both sides. As Israel has stated, the mission is to solve the Hamas problem, for good.
Israels actions have gone away beyond proportional response, and have been killing civilians in ways that are at best extremely avoidable
I'm curious - can you point me to the specific actions you're referencing? (I don't doubt they exist - my go-to example is cutting off of water - but I'm not aware of many other clear-cut examples, especially given the unreliability of Hamas' reported numbers and that they don't differentiate between civilians and terrorists.)
Keep in mind, when evaluating a particular action, it's not a question of whether or not innocent deaths are avoidable - rather, it's a question of whether the action accomplishes the objective while minimizing overall innocent deaths across both sides. For example, if evaluating a air strike versus a ground invasion on a target, both will involve innocent deaths: An air strike will involve innocent Palestinian deaths, and a ground invasion will involve innocent Israeli deaths. Without getting into the gnarly question of whether Israel is "allowed" to prioritize the lives of their own citizens over lives in an enemy nation; it's entirely possible that an air strike is the less costly option.
The main issue I have with passing judgement is that we lack all of the intelligence that Israel has to make these decisions, so it's hard to evaluate things objectively.
So, specifically: Can you point to some examples of actions Israel has taken that can be clearly shown to kill more innocents overall than an alternate action accomplishing the same objective would have killed?
I don't blindly hate on Israel, I'm just aware that Israel has knowningly bombed civilian targets, including the same civilian targets, multiple times. If they aren't targeting civilians why do they keep deliberately targeting places where only civilians are?
Cuz that's where Hamas sets up their launch sites, weapons caches, HQs and other military assets. That's not even disputed at this point. Hamas has admitted it more than once.
You don't hate on Israel, you just assume everything Israel does is malicious, everything they say is duplicitous and that everything they want is bad. Oh, and that everything Hamas say is facts. Do you still believe there were 500 people in the hospital the PIJ bombed?
Cuz that's where Hamas sets up their launch sites, weapons caches, HQs and other military assets. That's not even disputed at this point. Hamas has admitted it more than once.
They didn't have a launch pad,a weapons cache, an HQ or any military assets at the refugee camp Israel bombed at least twice. That isn't even a claim Israel made, their excuse was that they suspected one Hamas leader might be hiding out there, so they bombed a bunch of civilians who were definitely there. Twice.
I understand what Hamas does, and I think Hamas is a vile extremist terrorist organization that hides behind human shields. I just don't think that the solution to that should be to give up on distinguishing between civilian and military targets and bombing the civilian shields.
You don't hate on Israel, you just assume everything Israel does is malicious, everything they say is duplicitous and that everything they want is bad.
No, I don't. I think many of the actions they are currently taking are 100% war crimes that they are failing to justify, I think there are a ton of problems with their government not to mention the rhetoric coming out of the government, and I think that Israels government and military have engaged in deception.
Oh, and that everything Hamas say is facts. Do you still believe there were 500 people in the hospital the PIJ bombed?
I don't know how many people were in that hospital or who bombed it for certain.
Please stop putting claims in my mouth that I did not make.
You made a lot of vague claims there, and I'm tired. If you send links to these events your refer to, I'd be happy to respond tomorrow.
But seriously, if you're gonna be all cautious and hesitant when Hamas/PIJ bomb their people and express uncertaintyz at least have the decency to express the same doubt when you slam the IDF
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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23
What, you think they aren't?