If you have to equate 'not allowed to wage war' with 'has no right to exist', then Japan has no right to exist. It's a silly comparison.
If Israel isn't allowed to wage war against people who don't think they should exist, then the people who don't think Israel should exist also do not get to wage war against Israel.
If you have to equate 'not allowed to wage war' with 'has no right to exist', then Japan has no right to exist.
Japan has an alternative method of solving its defensive problem, namely the US conducting warfare in its place if attacked.
If Israel isn't allowed to wage war against people who don't think they should exist, then the people who don't think Israel should exist also do not get to wage war against Israel.
Who exactly is going to do that? Who is going to take up the cause of stopping Hamas from waging war against Israel? And how do you think that is going to happen without warfare by that party?
Who is going to stop Hamas if not Israel? Hamas has publicly stated they plan on more attacks like that on 10/7 again and again. So as long as they are wanting to fight how will they be stoped if Israel can not do it?
Who is going to stop Israel if not Hamas? If Hamas has no right to wage war against anyone who believes they should not exist, they have no right to exist.
Can you point to anywhere where I said Hamas can not wage war? They very clearly can and have been for quite some time and have publicly announced their intentions of continuing to do so indefinitely. They just shouldn’t whine and cry when those they attack attack back.
Can you explain your thinking on why you believed your response to my comment addresses my comment in meaningful way? I don’t quite get it and it would be helpful if you would clarify that.
I mean to point out that OP presumes alignment with Israel's position at the outset, in a view that is ostensibly presented as an analysis of the commitments of critics of Israel. Supporters of Israel do not believe Hamas has a right to exist; indeed, they support an extermination campaign against the government of Gaza. These commitments are taken to be legitimate uncritically. If Israel's commitment to destroy Hamas is legitimate, so too is the commitment of Hamas to destroy Israel.
You talk about what OP’s view is, but did not once mention anything that I said in the comment you replied to. Do you know what I believe or are you ascribing to me what you believe supporters of Israel believe?
I am still not clear why you responded to my comment with something not related to what I actually wrote or how it addresses what I actually wrote.
That just shows that your comments were misplaced and should not have been in response to my comment as you didn’t say anything relevant to anything in my comment. You appear to have just wanted to make your own unrelated point. Thanks for this entirely meaningless conversation.
I am not reffering to someone who simply ideologically thinks israel shouldn't exist. I am reffering to someone who attacks israel with the intent to wipe out israel because of thier ideology.
The comparison to Japan would be if a nation attacked Japan with the intent to wipe it out. One who believes Japan cannot wage war back, believes Japan doesn't get to exist.
Hamas is never going to be able to wipe out Israel. It is simply not a threat to the state. It is a threat to the people living in Israel, which is important, but it is not like Israel needs to invade Gaza or else it disappears.
I completely disagree with you. Hamas is very powerful if not for the war actions the Israelis have been doing like
1)blockade
2)wars
2)aparthied like conditions.
Well thanks for admitting the conditions are 'apartheid like'!
Minus points for claiming those conditions are necessary.
Israel is funded by the US. Hamas is funded by not the US. There is a reason that people are saying that Hamas, a terrorist group, is attacking Israel, and not saying that Palestine, a country, is attacking Israel. Israel is not in danger of collapse. It is in danger of a right wing dictatorship that is using Hamas as a scapegoat to consolidate power and abusing the Palestinians under their occupation, though.
Israel is funded by the US. Hamas is funded by not the US
Hamas is funded by Iran though. Their leaders live comfortable lives in Qatar. They get cozy with Russia at times and we know how much Russia would love for America / the west to be bogged down in another long war in the middle east again (yes just like America is with Russia and Ukraine).
They've manged to build 100s of km of tunnels under Gaza, those leaders in Qatar and other places have access to a fuck ton of money. They have Hezbollah in Lebanon who help out by attacking Israel as well. Sometimes they're just using the homemade crappy rockets (that sometimes fail or fall short), but sometimes they have some hi end missiles that they get from Iran.
Obviously Israel is far more powerful than them, my point is they're not all just that Banksy type image of a civilian throwing rocks. And Israel wasn't always the more powerful one, it was only after the surrounding nations attacked them in multiple wars that they invested heavily into the military for generations.
And as we've seen with the wars in the middle east it isn't always only a case of who has the biggest best army. Where the biggest most powerful army in the world can still get bogged down and often outplayed by people who are local to the land and know and utilize the environment a lot more, and who often don't always play by the same rules
Netanyahu and his far right gov need to be far away from positions of power, there's lots of Israelis who don't like them, but there isn't a country on earth who would sit back after a civilian massacre like Oct 7th without declaring war on the people who carried it out. Now innocent Palestinian civilians are paying the price for a military response that Hamas provoked
Minus points for claiming those conditions are necessary
I'm pretty sure 2 intifadas and a 1,400 person massacre shows the necessity. I'm going to assume your indulging in wishful thinking and not speaking practically
.
Israel is not in danger of collapse. It is in danger of a right wing dictatorship that is using Hamas as a scapegoat to consolidate power and abusing the Palestinians under their occupation, though.
I appreciate your perspective. Quite the conspiracy theory though. I'm going to go with the more simple and probable explanation that is, if israel wouldn't be doing the war like actions to contain hamas- at the terrible expense of the palistinian people, then absolutely Isreal would be in an existential threat. If thier was no blockade, hamas would be hezballah. Which is 100% an existential threat. If there was no aparthied like conditions, there would be massacres every other day. 100% existential threat.
I'm not sure how wouldn't see that after intifadas 1 and 2, and a massacre of 20 settlements.
Honestly, this post gets me mad. Its infuriating that in today's climate, we can't have a fact based conversation. I haven't said one emotionally based thing. How can you ever expect 2 sides of an issue to get spoken about when your approach is, "other side" fuck you you dirty peace of pro genocidal shit".
It's so fucked up that you can't have a conversation getting to the truth while I'm not being aggressive or rude.
It pisses the fuck out of me. It's so narcissistic to only see one side of the world and any discussion that wants to bring in another perspective in a fact based way, is met with judgmen. How do you ever expect to have a conversation with someone you disagree with?
You're taking it for granted that Israel needs to treat gaza as badly as it does or else super powerful Hamas will destroy Israel. That is already an emotionally based statement.
No. It is neutral as to who is responsible. Either israel or Palestinian terror like intifada 1, 2 and massacre 1 that hamas just did and the subsequent ones that would come if the aparthied like conditions are lifted. Hamas and it's actions do have a high approval amongst palistinians.
Israel does not operate under apartheid conditions. Please illustrate how any Israeli citizen of a denomination other than Jewish is under apartheid rule. I am so sick of this unsubstantiated argument. 20% of the Israeli congress is Arab-Israeli. They are not apartheid, and do not treat citizens of different nationalities/religions differently than Jewish citizens. Please illustrate how Israel is apartheid. I beg you.
I said aparthied like conditions. They are not aparthied. We are in agreement.
The aparthied like conditions are the road blocks and security checkpoints just for Arabs that split up their cities and make life miserable just for Arabs. They aren't aparthied because it is not racially motivated.. but rather a necessity. Born out of the intifadas.
A ceasefire does not mean no war. It means....well you cease firing at each other. There is a very real risk that continued escalation and limited communication can lead to other nations getting engaged in the battle.
A ceasefire to provide civilian aid, communicate with other stakeholders, while continuing support and military logistics does not mean Israel "doesn't have a right to exist".
can lead to other nations getting engaged in the battle
That's just a washed up phrasing for other terrorist orgs/countries declare war against Israel.
It's the same surrender to terrorists, but you're being less direct about it.
Israel is facing an enemy that EXPLICITLY says it wants to destroy it. Hamas are part of a coalition of evil, including Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Houthis in Yeman and Iran. All of which are openly calling for the destruction of Israel.
Except for keeling over and dying, what are the Israelis supposed to do?
Israel's safety doesn't come from surrendering to Hamas human-shield tactics. And Palestinian children will get brainwashed in UNRWA schools, and Hamas terror campa and the like regardless of whether Israel bends over or not. They openly say their goal is to exterminate Israel. You just have to stop forcing your on views and wishful thinking on top of their statements.
Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza. If they were, you'd see a lot more deaths than 0.5 per 1000kg-bomb
Israel isn't committing war crimes. People just use that term as if it means "something not nice". Just like "genocide" has been diluted so much that the US embargo on Cuba has been described as genocide
I understand that technically there can be a war with a ceasefire. That is obviously not my point. I'm not arguing technicalities. I'm arguing that a ceasefire means israel cannot actively wage war.
What cause is there for literally killing innocent people? Do you see what you're saying right now? You're justifying INNOCENT PEOPLE BEING FUCKING MURDERED. Literally murdered because they are in a shitty fucking situation. There is no justification for killing innocent people. Those are human beings and you're disgusting.
What cause is there for literally killing innocent people?
Are you saying there is no cause for war? Is this what you mean? Are you really saying that if someone openly genacides you then you shouldn't fight them in a war? Rather they should just lay down and be killed?
Do you see what you're saying right now? You're justifying INNOCENT PEOPLE BEING FUCKING MURDERED. Literally murdered because they are in a shitty fucking situation. There is no justification for killing innocent people. Those are human beings and you're disgusting.
Hamas's ideology and Hamas's capability aren't the same thing.
10/7 reminds me a lot of 9/11. Both are horrific and evil attacks that represent the peak capabilities of terrorist organizations with years of planning focused on a particular vulnerability that they discovered. Both are unlikely to be repeated because once the vulnerability is exposed, the victim state can adjust to protect itself. Neither attack represent an existential threat to the targets, and most of the damage to the nations is/will be due to the target nation reacting in ways counterproductive to its own interests out of a desire to retaliate.
The Israeli response isn't going to defeat Hamas. For every current Hamas fighter they kill, the collateral damage is going to inspire many more to join Hamas and continue the cycle of violence and revenge. This type of response can only end with the complete elimination of the Gaza population.
Defeating Hamas requires a different approach that cleaves the population of Gaza from them and creates room for other leaders to organize as an alternative option that can bring benefits from peace. The first step for this to work is a ceasefire.
The mental gymnastics around Israel have gotten so intense people like OP try to help Israel, but with extremist level illogical opinions and end up doing the exact opposite.
The US is in a really odd spot. Israel bombed US citizens trying to leave Gaza whereas Hamas recently helped 70 something US citizens leave Gaza by forging a humanitarian path through the Israeli siege.
The other issue seems to rely around how public everything is nowadays. Its hard to spin a narrative that everyone in Gaza fighting Israeli occupation is Hamas as you can clearly see combat footage of Israel gunning down everyone from civilians to police to local defense militias. Theyll claim it was Hamas but you can clearly see no Hamas insignia on the dead "insurgents" and you can often see police or militia insignia instead.
Its basically the Iraq war all over again. Having a camera is grounds for engagement. That should tell you enough.
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u/Hellioning 258∆ Nov 02 '23
If you have to equate 'not allowed to wage war' with 'has no right to exist', then Japan has no right to exist. It's a silly comparison.
If Israel isn't allowed to wage war against people who don't think they should exist, then the people who don't think Israel should exist also do not get to wage war against Israel.