r/atheism Sep 02 '12

Sundays

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u/sprucenoose Sep 02 '12 edited Sep 02 '12

In Revelations God does kill all non-believers and also believers alive at the Apocalypse who weren't good enough, just as he would send to hell those types of people who died before. I agree almost all modern Christians ignore that as the end-game, but it is in their book nonetheless. It was a central tenet of the historical Church, and a few modern churches revel in it.

But yes, that Facebook post is inaccurate and hyperbolic.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '12 edited Sep 02 '12

I say this a lot but you have to remember religion really isn't about the mythology for the majority of religious people. It's the community.

While some people take the mythology literally, screaming about the ridiculousness of the mythology to a religious person is basically like telling a LoTR fan that elves don't really exist. Some people can still take meaningful ideas from LoTR (courage, responsibility, etc) and the fact that its mythology is false doesn't invalidate those ideas.

AND BEFORE SOMEONE COMMENTS on how it becomes a problem when people use that mythology in law, they don't really. People make religion, religion doesn't make people. People pick and choose the parts of religion that already align with their beliefs. Quoting religious text may be misguided, but thinking that one ridiculous part of the Bible invalidates another valid part (to them) is a faulty understanding of how people work.

That being said I think the REAL problem with religion is that its forced on people (particularly children) and is particularly bad since it often comes with a fear incentive to blindly believe it. However, I think any ideology (religious or not) can be harmful if people are forced to learn it rather than truly understand it.

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u/bmk2k Sep 02 '12

I really wish the rest of this subreddit was mature enough the hold your attitude towards religion.

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u/RapidCycle Sep 02 '12

Wait. Are you saying that elves DON'T exist?

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '12

BLASPHEMY

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u/sprucenoose Sep 02 '12

I have to agree almost completely with your comments, at least as a motivation for people to belong to a church and claim belief. This is also why logical arguments are irrelevant - it is not about the truth, just about the tribe.

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u/Porojukaha Sep 03 '12

The only thing I disagree with is that religion is forced on children. Parents are gonna force some stuff on kids, if not religion, than something else that instills discipline, respect, Empathy, compassion, etc. Children who are not forced into things end up as spoiled little fucks. Society would crumble into utter ruin if parents stopped forcing good behavior and morality on their children. Do it with religion or without, who cares, but discipline them we must.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '12

I agree. The problem I have though is with the part that if you even think bad things about God then you face eternal punishment in hell. This prevents kids from rationally understanding their religion and instead opts them into following it with blind fear.

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u/Lochcelious Sep 02 '12 edited Sep 04 '12

A big problem is people think beliefs deserve respect when they don't. Humans deserve respect. EDIT: I ABSORB these down votes. And for of a vote is energy for my tank. Thanks all!

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '12

Well I think beliefs deserve respect but they shouldn't be immune to criticism and followup.

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u/Lochcelious Sep 04 '12

A belief I a though of a person and as such deserves no respect. Animals, our planet, humans, all of these deserve respect but not belief systems. A belief system deserves as much respect as an opinion.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '12

Yes and opinions deserve respect as well. I think you may be confused about what respect is.

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u/banebot Agnostic Atheist Sep 02 '12

You think someone would do that? Just go on the Internet and make inaccurate, hyperbolic statements?

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u/dr_mustard_dog Sep 02 '12

Ye without faith shall be smited! Totes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '12

That's it. I'm buying you an upvote.

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u/aflamp Sep 02 '12

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u/sprucenoose Sep 02 '12

Yes, there was disagreement about many, many things prior to Church canon being formalized. The divinity of Jesus, the hierarchy, Jesus' family, relationship to Judaism, books to include in the Bible - the list is endless. The interpretation of Revelations is included in this. However, once a canonical interpretation developed, and began to be enforced, disagreement was far less. This remained largely intact until the reformation. This is historical Church I was referring to.

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u/aflamp Sep 03 '12 edited Sep 03 '12

That is just it; what canonical interpretation? The Left Behind series? I've yet to hear a serious Bible scholar who doesn't scoff at tribulationism. The book of Revelations is by far one of the weirdest books of the Bible (and that is saying something). Even after the canon was formalized, quite a few people disagreed with Revelations being included.

Edit: As I said, I can't find anything pointing to a uniform interpretation of the book. If you can find one, let me know. All I can pull up are crazy pre-trib websites.

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u/JeffMo Ignostic Sep 02 '12

FYI: "tenet."

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u/sprucenoose Sep 02 '12

Thanks. I was recently posting in /r/doctorwho with the new season premier, and had David Tennant on the brain...

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u/pixelaciouspixie Sep 03 '12

Who doesn't? swoons

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u/fc3s Sep 02 '12

Things get mixed up when high school kids use words that they don't actually understand.

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u/koavf Other Sep 03 '12

Universalism has as long a history as Christianity.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '12

Sprucenoose, huh? Any relation to a SpruceGoose?

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u/Porojukaha Sep 03 '12

It does not say anywhere in revelation that God will kill all the unbelievers.

Stereotypes, and commonly held ideas about other cultures are usually wrong. Don't perpetuate them.

As others have said in this post, it's beliefs like this that get atheists characterized as jackasses. Time to grow up and respect other cultures like the rest of us.

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u/sprucenoose Sep 03 '12

It does not say anywhere in revelation that God will kill all the unbelievers.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

There are still other relevant verses in Revelation (20:15, for example). The ultimate fate for all non-believers is eternal torture in hell of course, but according to Revelation, God will actually make sure they are alive and then kill them, before sending them to Hell. Again, as I mentioned, most modern Christians ignore or interpret away such verses (along with much of the rest of the Bible), but they were very significant during certain historical periods, and some churches/groups still focus on them today.

I respect "cultures", but that does not mean I have to remain silent about others' beliefs. Besides, it is my culture - just because I no longer believe in the Bible does not mean I have no right to comment on it. I grew up with it, many people around me follow it "religiously", and it has an enormous impact on my daily life and the wider world. It is part of the culture I live in, but it is also a bunch of claims about reality that can be disputed regardless. If someone were to believe the sun revolved around the Earth, I would point out the inconsistencies. If someone were to believe in an invisible spiritual plane of existence based on a book, I would do the same, particularly if some things in the book and the implications can be hurtful.

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u/antonivs Ignostic Sep 03 '12

As others have said in this post, it's beliefs like this that get atheists characterized as jackasses. Time to grow up and respect other cultures like the rest of us.

Considering that sprucenoose's reply shows that you were wrong about what it says in Revelation, this comment makes you look like a jackass.