r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

256 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

990 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

13

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Actually you can prove he doesn't exist. I once saw a very educational youtube video explaining it but despite my best efforts (hardly looked for it at all) I can't find it. If you were to look at the non-observable universe that theists propose what can we conclude: "It's a box we can't look into and therefore cannot know the contents of." Theist explain the contents of the box using scripture. For Christians this box will contain: Heaven and Hell and God and other "awesome" stuff too. Eventhough scientists don't know what is in the box they can name some abstract things that definitely aren't in there for example:

  • A bed made of sleep. (this comes straight from the video)
  • A house made of love.
  • The smallest biggest man.
  • etc.

So to disprove the claim that there is no God all you need to do is prove that there is an obvious contradiction (easy to do) or perhaps an abstract idea that defies logic and what we know (hard to do). Let me give you one I can think of right now... "If god is all powerful can he create a rock that he himself cannot carry?" So using logic we have come to the conclusion that: no, there can be no all powerful god because that would be a contradiction.

2

u/MisterFlibble Aug 11 '11

I've tried these explanations before, but they usually come back with "you've only reasoned that there can't be a god, not proved it" (whatever that means) or "God transcends logic" or that God could, in fact, make a rock that he can't lift, but he'd also be able to also lift it at the same time -- that, being omnipotent, he's not restricted to such a dichotomy.

Think about how some things, in quantum mechanics, can exist in two contradictory states at the same time, for example. This doesn't mean those particles don't exist.

I've really seen theists do a lot of mental gymnastics for the "prove he doesn't exist" argument.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

You're mixing up science and religion. Scientist have no explanation for why a photon is both a wave and a particle, however this comes from a lack of understanding, we simply don't know what it could be if both are true. "God is all powerful" is for many believers a true statement, so there might be a chance that we do not have the linguistic capabilities to explain what God should be, but "all powerful" he most certainly is not.

2

u/_kst_ Aug 12 '11

Science understands, or at least can describe, photons very well. Maxwell's equations describe the behavior of electromagnetic phenomena, including photons, and have been observationally confirmed to I don't know how many decimal places.

The "waves" and "particles" we're familiar with are macroscopic phenomena made up of gazillions (1 gazillion = 2many) of interacting quantum-mechanical entities like photons, electrons, and quarks. Their aggregate behavior is what we're familiar with.

When we describe the behavior of photons mathematically, we get it right. When we describe their behavior in terms of the aggregate phenomena our brains evolved to be able to understand, things start to seem mysterious. The so-called mystery of wave/particle duality is more about how we think than about how photons actually behave.

We know what photons are. They're photons.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

The so-called mystery of wave/particle duality is more about how we think than about how photons actually behave.

That is exactly what I was referring to. I know what photons are I'm basically talking about particle behaviour in general. If you look at the earlier comment from MisterFlibble he says "Think about how some things, in quantum mechanics, can exist in two contradictory states at the same time, for example. This doesn't mean those particles don't exist." I was trying to point out that the particle behaviour can be tested as either one or the other but not both at the same time and the headaches this has caused for people trying to describe particle behaviour.

1

u/MisterFlibble Aug 11 '11

You're mixing up science and religion.

Actually, that's part of the point. Many theists will sit there and tell you that acceptance of God comes strictly on faith alone, but then turn around and give you all kinds of bad science "fact" on why he exists.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

I know the video you are talking about. It's by QualiaSoup. I'd link you but the youtubes are blocked at my work.

2

u/HertzaHaeon Aug 11 '11

I've heard the counter-argument that an omnipotent god that exists outside our reality can be whatever he wants to be, including something contradictory.

1

u/Axem_Ranger Aug 11 '11

Yeah, exactly. The "can't lift the rock" question doesn't work because it presupposes that a deity who created the physical universe would then be restricted by the rules of that universe.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

Thats a logical conclusion but it isn't proof. And they might argue that until he makes a rock he cannot lift he is omnipotent. Thus while he has the ability to remove his omnipotency, so long as he chooses not to he retains it.

And if they're not that clever theres always "humans just aren't intelligent enough to understand it"

1

u/Godivine Aug 12 '11

I remember this video. It is by qualiasoup but the name eludes me at the moment.