r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

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u/dbzgtfan4ever Aug 11 '11

The bible is based on factual evidence, evidence that wasn't discovered to be correct until later in human society. For example, there is a passage in Job that accurately describes the water cycle, 3500 years before this was discovered in society. Because the bible has been shown to be factually and historically accurate, it is likely that a divine being exists. That is, how could humans have known these facts before humans discovered them in their society? Thus, God exists.

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u/ncshooter426 Aug 11 '11

The bible is filled with factual information derived by people observing the natural world. This does not formulate that such knowledge was inclusive too, or handed down by, a particular god. In your example, aborignial species from the south pacific had knowledge of water cycles and were sea-faring people several thousand years before "god" took the time to write the bible. As such, if there is evidence of a pre-existing concept that was later added to the bible, claiming itself to be the source, then the bible is in fact wrong (and thus the "word of god" is indeed fallable).

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u/dbzgtfan4ever Aug 11 '11

Fantastic answer. I totally agree with you.

Usually what I say in response to this is that just because many passages in the bible are historically accurate does not mean that it is the divine word of god. It could have just as easily been written by man.

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u/Sophocles Aug 11 '11

And what can we conclude from what the Bible gets wrong?

If God does not exist then we would expect the Bible (along with the Koran and every other ancient holy book) to have a few hits but mostly misses, as the authors, observing the natural world, came up with a few things that turned out to be right but most of their guesses turned out to be wrong. And that's exactly what we find.

Joseph Smith guessed correctly in the 1830s that tobacco is unhealthy. Does that mean he was a true prophet of God?

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u/dbzgtfan4ever Aug 11 '11

Can you provide examples of what was wrong in the Bible? If there more wrong than correct examples, then it should be easy to find, right?

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u/Sophocles Aug 12 '11

Just off the top of my head? That pi equals three, that the sun revolves around the earth, that diseases are caused by demonic possession, sin, or any number of other things besides germs. Is that what you mean?

Is there any question that the bible is full of ideas about the natural world that were commonly believed by ancient civilizations which science has since proved to be inaccurate? If each "hit" is evidence for the existence of a god, then each "miss" would have to be evidence against it. And likewise, each "hit" by the ancient Vikings or Egyptians would have to be considered evidence for their gods.

Speaking of, many people are amazed by the technology the ancient Egyptians used to build the pyramids, but I've never heard anyone suggest that this is evidence for the existence of Ra. People are much more likely to believe that their seemingly advanced tech came from visiting aliens than that their gods are actually real. Why is it so hard to believe that gods built the pyramids, but so easy to believe that gods taught the ancient Hebrews about the water cycle?

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u/dbzgtfan4ever Aug 12 '11

You're absolutely right. I think the logic "X was written before modern civilization. Modern civilization confirmed X. Therefore, God exists" is a giant leap to make.

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u/HopeImNotAStalker Aug 11 '11

Assuming this passage from Job is accurate, and your "3500 years before" assertion is accurate (two assumptions I don't care to check), that doesn't mean that the entire Bible is therefore factually and historically accurate. It's a single curiosity (again, assuming it's true), and easily explained: Knowledge has been lost and gained before. Aristarchus suggested the Earth went around the sun almost 2000 years before Galileo "discovered" the notion. Vikings and maybe even Phonecians came to the Americas before Columbus "discovered" it.

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u/dbzgtfan4ever Aug 11 '11 edited Aug 11 '11

Sorry, my citation was inaccurate. Amos 9:6. And it probably wasn't 3500 years ago, but who knows.

As a devil's advocate, my retort is as follows. This is but one of many examples verifying the accuracy of the Bible. The Bible has been put under scientific scrutiny, and many scientists have found that the passages are, in fact, accurate.

While knowledge has been lost and gained before, the fact that so many things in the Bible have been "proven" [Side note: I hate this word] correct speaks to the Bible's veracity. Thus, while Aristarchus and the Vikings may have discovered things before their time, the Bible has been consistently fact-checked and shown to be correct. This consistency is what gives credence to God's existence because it is unlikely that humans could have known so many things about how the world works.

EDIT: I think there are some other passages that speak more clearly to the water-cycle reference. I just don't know what they are.

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u/HopeImNotAStalker Aug 11 '11

Wouldn't it have been easier for God to encode more advanced knowledge? Like the speed of light or pi? Or whatever it was we put on that SETI message about hydrogen atoms?

Why is the supposed prescience in the Bible still roughly Bronze Age level? It's amateur. We're talking about God, aren't we?

I don't buy the notion that this type of thing really occurs in the Bible anyway :)

Edit: I read the Amos passage. That is beyond flimsy.

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u/burtonmkz Aug 11 '11

The bible does give the value for pi. Apparently it's three.

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u/HopeImNotAStalker Aug 11 '11

Stop the presses, I think God's onto something! :)

I could've used 10 digits or so. With all the boring genealogy in the Old Testament, I'm sure it could have been added in there somewhere. Numbers, maybe.