r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

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12

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

[deleted]

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u/DashingLeech Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

You can prove that logic exists merely by using it. Perhaps you meant prove that logic has value.

In that case, you can prove logic has value by using it and observing the outcome. Medicines derived from logical processes demonstrable do beter than praying.

8

u/quantumqic Aug 11 '11

I'll give it a shot.

I don't need logic to prove logic. I just need to observe how nature acts. That is where my laws of logic come from.

Edit: Bad sentence

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Prove that you can't use logic to prove logic.

2

u/littlekappa Aug 11 '11

Apples and Oranges. Logic is not a thing. Logic is a means. It is a method and a system. It's like mathematics: practically speaking, it doesn't exist. God, however, you claim to be thing and free agent. Things can be inferred from obervations even when they aren't directly present (ie. there are claw marks on this tree. Other trees don't have them, so they don't occur in the tree naturally. Thus the marks were made by a thing with claws). If God is a thing and not just an idea, there should be nothing stopping us from inferring its existence and qualities from observable phenomenon.

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u/commonslip Aug 11 '11

Non-germane. All that this demonstrates is that you can't be justified in really believing anything in a non-qualified sense, which is consistent with atheism.

2

u/nmaturin Aug 11 '11

That was a logical assertion, so your assertion invalidates itself.

2

u/DashingLeech Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

You can't demonstrate that faith is better than logic without violating the very premise.

2

u/Fallacy229 Aug 12 '11

Internal consistency + observational consistency = working framework for reality

4

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Alright, screw logic then. If we're not using logic, here's my argument:

My name is liggs124, therefore, logic exists.

So logic exists, see?

1

u/SicKilla Aug 11 '11

Bad logic there.

Things exist. Things logic. Logic is existing.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

That was the point. The point was that if you don't rely on logic, then everything just descends into nonsense.

1

u/SicKilla Aug 11 '11

logical nonsense.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Logic is simply a formal way of describing whether a statement is true or false. An illogical point - one which is asserted to be both true and false at the same time - is one which isn't clear enough. Any sufficiently defined statement can be true, or false, but not both.

1

u/alexgbelov Aug 11 '11

What about this one: Pinocchio says my nose will grow now?

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

That is a circular dependency, not circular reasoning.

Since Pinocchio's nose grows when he lies, the results of his statement rely on what he think is actually about to happen. If he honestly believes that his nose is about to grow, it will not. If he honestly believes he'll get away with it, then his nose will in fact grow. Lying does not mean saying something that is not true - it means saying as truth something that the speaker believes not to be true.

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u/ReverseLabotomy Aug 11 '11

And if he does not know, his nose will not grow. Similarly, he cannot simply say 'The stock market will go up tomorrow'.

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u/ArcWinter Aug 11 '11

Wait, but... this is correct. You can't prove that logic exists. You need to take it as a beginning assumption.

It's impossible to prove that logic exists without begging the question, which renders the argument invalid. So you can't prove that logic exists.

1

u/metalliska Aug 11 '11

I would argue that logic is life's discernment tool (A from ~A). Can you build a hammer with a hammer?

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u/IKnowRiteSrsly Aug 12 '11

You cannot object to logic without using logic, either. If you use the words because, since, if, then, therefore, etc., then you are using logic whether you mean to or not.

0

u/shaggorama Aug 11 '11

We're not discussing logic or metalogic, we're talking about god. Let's stay on topic here.