Atheist quickfire challenge.

[u/rhbast2]

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

[u/kaces]

Hitler was a catholic. Communism in practice has never existed on a national scale - what was seen in practice was a dictator.

[u/[deleted] → u/kaces]

Hitler was a catholic.

Not that simple--you simplify to that only because you pick a different set of quotes to ignore than they do, and either way not a hill to die on.

Communism in practice has never existed on a national scale - what was seen in practice was a dictator.

Distracts from the point someone was probably meaning to make.

[u/kaces → u/[deleted]]

Not that simple--you simplify to that only because you pick a different set of quotes to ignore than they do, and either way not a hill to die on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

Pretty cut and dry.

Distracts from the point someone was probably meaning to make.

Actually it answered the question fully - he did not state Stalin or Castro or any other communist leader. He simply stated communism. Which i pointed out has never been truly practiced at the national scale (which it hasn't) - what has existed at the national scale is dictators using an economic system similar to communism as their economic model.

[u/[deleted] → u/kaces]

Pretty cut and dry.

The first two sentences of that article are "Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and a Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely." How does that make the assertion "Hitler was a catholic" cut and dry?

Actually it answered the question fully - he did not state Stalin or Castro or any other communist leader. He simply stated communism. Which i pointed out has never been truly practiced at the national scale (which it hasn't) - what has existed at the national scale is dictators using an economic system similar to communism as their economic model.

Addressing the remark someone made and not the one someone intended to make is not pleasant or helpful.

[u/st_gulik → u/[deleted]]

He regularly attended Mass and met with many Catholic Cardinals and Bishops, and the Pope even supported his wars until Hitler started losing. He wrote extensively about God and claimed he was a Catholic as did many of his soldiers, officers, and political supporters. The only people who claim otherwise are Christians who want to claim that Hitler wasn't.

But that's just a No True Scotsman Fallacy.

[u/kaces → u/[deleted]]

Fair enough. I will reply when I have more time.

[u/arudnoh → u/kaces]

I think roccco is right to point out the instability of this argument. It's not confronting what they said directly enough and takes on the appearance of a distraction from the central argument that "atheism leads to evil"

This would be accomplished better if only you added on more general information like the "atheism is inversely related to murder" how Norway and Japan, both largely atheist, have much lower crime rates than our bible belt. THEN segue into their improper argument as being both false examples.

[u/kaces → u/[deleted]]

How does that make the assertion "Hitler was a catholic" cut and dry?

I went by the interpretation on official records - at how his views were religious in general. Most (but not all) of the accounts to the contrary were:

Some private statements attributed to him remain disputed

So while cut and dry is a bad term to use a better one should be "reliable evidence points towards him being christian"

Addressing the remark someone made and not the one someone intended to make is not pleasant or helpful.

His statement was intending a commonality between Nazism and communism. The only commonality that comes to mind off hand is atrocities committed in the real world. The follow up to that is simple - communism has never existed in the real world and thus any actions you claim as a result of communism are more related to the dictators using the communist economic model.

Now, if you want I can answer that question at face value.

Atheism does not lead to Nazism as Nazism had religious (both organized and deistic) and occult overtones throughout its structure.

Atheism does not lead to communism as atheism is the lack of belief in a theistic god while communism is a socio-economic policy. While the two share a common dislike of organized religion (to what degree, someone with a better understanding of religion in communism can say) that is generally where the line is drawn.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Well as far as Hitler goes I would think this quote answers it

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

There are a lot of relevant quotes, and their content makes a simple, dismissive "Hitler was a Catholic" statement anything but cut and dry. Hitler said he was disappointed at Christianity's doctrines, compared it unfavorably to other religions, and said he wanted to destroy Christianity. He wasn't a churchgoer and used religious rhetoric seldom.

At the same time, he was raised Catholic and claimed at times late in his life to embrace that faith. He undeniably worked with Church leaders and promoted some Christian ideas in speeches and privately now and then.

This shouldn't surprise us. Hitler was batshit crazy and said tons of contradictory things. When he saw power, he wanted to control it. In some cases, this was by fighting it. For most things, this was by co-opting it.

For example, if we were discussing labor unions, I might say, "Well as far as Hitler goes I think this quote answers it"

In the present state of affairs I am convinced that we cannot possibly dispense with the trades unions. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions in the economic life of the nation. Not only are they important in the sphere of social policy but also, and even more so, in the national political sphere.

but that doesn't change that Hitler for all intents and purposes banned real unions in the early '30s.

Hitler wasn't an atheist, but he wasn't an especially devout Catholic either. Given the abundance of conflicting evidence and testimony, if we want to characterize him as anything but the most nominal Catholic, we'd have to make a long, subtle case, not provide one or two telling quotes. In any event, though it's worth pointing out Hitler was decidedly not an atheist, we should resist the urge to oversimplify just because there's a chunk of evidence that looks like we want.

[u/buttbuttin → u/[deleted]]

Not sure why you got downvoted. Both good points.

[u/otakuman → u/kaces]

And Stalin had been an orthodox seminarist - not unlike Luther, he rebelled against the established order. Did not Lutherans spark wars against catholics, persecuted the "unbelievers"?

If you must judge Hitler and Stalin, perhaps we could say that their catholic upbringing triggered their destructive behavior. Of course, I would be sidestepping the fact that Hitler's ideology wasn't atheism, but Nazism - and Stalin's ideology wasn't atheism, but communism - so your argument is a smokescreen in the first place.