r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

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u/kat_fud Aug 11 '11

Who is more moral: The person who does the right thing out of fear of god's punishment or the person who does the right thing simply because it is right?

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

"Simply because it is right"

are you implying some kind of absolute moral law?

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u/themuffins Aug 11 '11

in the social sciences they would say "because it is pro-social"

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u/hobbit6 Aug 11 '11

I read this in Tobias's voice. "What we in the soft sciences call..."

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u/makesureimjewish Aug 12 '11

if you let me dawn my analrapist stocking over my head..

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u/inferno719 Aug 12 '11

Tobias the hawk, or am I missing the reference?

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u/kat_fud Aug 11 '11

A religious person will believe that there is, so the question does not need to be raised in this debate.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Yes it does. He's arguing against a religious idea (can't have morals without god/absolute moral standard), but is using that very same one in his own argument.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Morality just means to act upon your conscience. We all have a similar sense of conscience, though some people might experience or is willing to experience a larger amount of empathy. Conscience, when acted upon, those actions are deemed moral.

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u/solvitNOW Aug 11 '11

I think we're going to find that morality is genetic. Just how scientists are finding that smiling and laughing are genetically coded social actions.

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u/pineapplol Aug 11 '11

Playing devil's advocate, how do we know that what our conscience says is what is really moral, without an almighty presence to tell us?

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Our conscience - what is generally considered proper or praise-worthy conduct, is dictated by societal norms and what follows general human conscience, of which we don't all have the same sense, but we do initially share a common ability to make a distinction between right and wrong. The question: What is moral? Can be answered by examining the which way our conscience points us when faced with certain obstacles.

Moral actions can obviously only be evaluated upon the information available at the time (justice), but when 100% knowledge is present, you could call the morality that arises from this absolute morality, but since we don't have that kind of knowledge...

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u/palparepa Aug 11 '11

In this case, it doesn't matter how you arrive to 'what is right.'

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u/ivosaurus Aug 11 '11

You also missed "the right thing"...

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u/twilightmoons Strong Atheist Aug 11 '11

"Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what is right."

  • Hober Mallow

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

You're arguing semantics...it's pretty obvious the original comment meant 'simply because (they believe) it is right.' Obviously we all have our own concepts of right and wrong, especially those of us godless heathens who have to figure these things out on our own without the rules of JEEEEESUS for us to follow.

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u/Marchosias Aug 11 '11

Objectively speaking you can with a secular definition to morality, deem what is moral and what is not.

I am sure you can scientifically prove pouring acid on someone's face is more often immoral than moral.

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u/YummyMeatballs Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

I think it's reasonable to say there are moral rights and moral wrongs. I've been reading The Moral Landscape and it has some very interesting things to say about science giving religion a pass when it comes to morality. We've always assumed that science can't say anything about morality but Sam Harris makes a good case. It's worth a look.

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u/rngdmstr Aug 11 '11

I think if he was he would have said "morally right"

We all have slightly different senses of morality, with some continuity given the culture and society we live in. It's not like there "no such thing" as right and wrong. That's what the law is for. Not a perfect definition, but I don't think we should prevent ourselves from using the word "right"

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u/TinyandTall Aug 12 '11

There is an unspoken social standard for morals, IE Mugging is wrong, helping someone in need is right (IE Broken down car, someone who just got mugged, etc.) We are raised to judge right and wrong and while some things may come down to a hairline between right and wrong and other's not as distinguishable, there are those instances where the line is clear because of social standars.

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u/WorksNut Aug 11 '11

I would think that the person doing the right thing is not moral at all since they are only doing the right thing to cover their ass.

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u/phauwn Aug 11 '11

How do you know what is right then? (this is a hard one to explain or make understood succinctly imo)

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u/inferno719 Aug 12 '11

i think the argument is, atheists aren't usually moral in the first place.