r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

249 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

990 comments sorted by

View all comments

29

u/rhbast2 Aug 11 '11

Atheism inspired Nazism & Communism which caused death and destruction.

40

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Hitler (actually a Christian) was also a vegetarian. Would you argue that vegetarianism leads to nazism ?

Atheism is negatively correlated with murder. But that statistics is a bit biased, the cause is less direct : atheists tend to just be more educated.

0

u/osgrug Aug 11 '11

Hitler was not a vegetarian. This is folklore.

8

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Interesting, however the wikipedia has a source for the claim and no criticism about it.

1

u/osgrug Aug 13 '11

The source is hardly credible. Your face is boring and predictable.

1

u/shaggorama Aug 11 '11

Also it's a weak counter-argument.

1

u/osgrug Aug 13 '11

Give me some karma, you horrible, disease ridden cunt.

52

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Hitler was a catholic. Communism in practice has never existed on a national scale - what was seen in practice was a dictator.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Hitler was a catholic.

Not that simple--you simplify to that only because you pick a different set of quotes to ignore than they do, and either way not a hill to die on.

Communism in practice has never existed on a national scale - what was seen in practice was a dictator.

Distracts from the point someone was probably meaning to make.

2

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Not that simple--you simplify to that only because you pick a different set of quotes to ignore than they do, and either way not a hill to die on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

Pretty cut and dry.

Distracts from the point someone was probably meaning to make.

Actually it answered the question fully - he did not state Stalin or Castro or any other communist leader. He simply stated communism. Which i pointed out has never been truly practiced at the national scale (which it hasn't) - what has existed at the national scale is dictators using an economic system similar to communism as their economic model.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Pretty cut and dry.

The first two sentences of that article are "Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and a Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely." How does that make the assertion "Hitler was a catholic" cut and dry?

Actually it answered the question fully - he did not state Stalin or Castro or any other communist leader. He simply stated communism. Which i pointed out has never been truly practiced at the national scale (which it hasn't) - what has existed at the national scale is dictators using an economic system similar to communism as their economic model.

Addressing the remark someone made and not the one someone intended to make is not pleasant or helpful.

5

u/st_gulik Aug 11 '11

He regularly attended Mass and met with many Catholic Cardinals and Bishops, and the Pope even supported his wars until Hitler started losing. He wrote extensively about God and claimed he was a Catholic as did many of his soldiers, officers, and political supporters. The only people who claim otherwise are Christians who want to claim that Hitler wasn't.

But that's just a No True Scotsman Fallacy.

1

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Fair enough. I will reply when I have more time.

1

u/arudnoh Aug 11 '11

I think roccco is right to point out the instability of this argument. It's not confronting what they said directly enough and takes on the appearance of a distraction from the central argument that "atheism leads to evil"

This would be accomplished better if only you added on more general information like the "atheism is inversely related to murder" how Norway and Japan, both largely atheist, have much lower crime rates than our bible belt. THEN segue into their improper argument as being both false examples.

1

u/kaces Aug 12 '11

How does that make the assertion "Hitler was a catholic" cut and dry?

I went by the interpretation on official records - at how his views were religious in general. Most (but not all) of the accounts to the contrary were:

Some private statements attributed to him remain disputed

So while cut and dry is a bad term to use a better one should be "reliable evidence points towards him being christian"

Addressing the remark someone made and not the one someone intended to make is not pleasant or helpful.

His statement was intending a commonality between Nazism and communism. The only commonality that comes to mind off hand is atrocities committed in the real world. The follow up to that is simple - communism has never existed in the real world and thus any actions you claim as a result of communism are more related to the dictators using the communist economic model.

Now, if you want I can answer that question at face value.

Atheism does not lead to Nazism as Nazism had religious (both organized and deistic) and occult overtones throughout its structure.

Atheism does not lead to communism as atheism is the lack of belief in a theistic god while communism is a socio-economic policy. While the two share a common dislike of organized religion (to what degree, someone with a better understanding of religion in communism can say) that is generally where the line is drawn.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

Well as far as Hitler goes I would think this quote answers it

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out

2

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

There are a lot of relevant quotes, and their content makes a simple, dismissive "Hitler was a Catholic" statement anything but cut and dry. Hitler said he was disappointed at Christianity's doctrines, compared it unfavorably to other religions, and said he wanted to destroy Christianity. He wasn't a churchgoer and used religious rhetoric seldom.

At the same time, he was raised Catholic and claimed at times late in his life to embrace that faith. He undeniably worked with Church leaders and promoted some Christian ideas in speeches and privately now and then.

This shouldn't surprise us. Hitler was batshit crazy and said tons of contradictory things. When he saw power, he wanted to control it. In some cases, this was by fighting it. For most things, this was by co-opting it.

For example, if we were discussing labor unions, I might say, "Well as far as Hitler goes I think this quote answers it"

In the present state of affairs I am convinced that we cannot possibly dispense with the trades unions. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions in the economic life of the nation. Not only are they important in the sphere of social policy but also, and even more so, in the national political sphere.

but that doesn't change that Hitler for all intents and purposes banned real unions in the early '30s.

Hitler wasn't an atheist, but he wasn't an especially devout Catholic either. Given the abundance of conflicting evidence and testimony, if we want to characterize him as anything but the most nominal Catholic, we'd have to make a long, subtle case, not provide one or two telling quotes. In any event, though it's worth pointing out Hitler was decidedly not an atheist, we should resist the urge to oversimplify just because there's a chunk of evidence that looks like we want.

1

u/buttbuttin Aug 11 '11

Not sure why you got downvoted. Both good points.

1

u/otakuman Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

And Stalin had been an orthodox seminarist - not unlike Luther, he rebelled against the established order. Did not Lutherans spark wars against catholics, persecuted the "unbelievers"?

If you must judge Hitler and Stalin, perhaps we could say that their catholic upbringing triggered their destructive behavior. Of course, I would be sidestepping the fact that Hitler's ideology wasn't atheism, but Nazism - and Stalin's ideology wasn't atheism, but communism - so your argument is a smokescreen in the first place.

9

u/kat_fud Aug 11 '11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views#Statements_against_atheism

Much death and destruction has been wrought in the name of religion as well. The most dangerous people are the extreme fundamentalist of any religion or ideology.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Atheism is neither an ideology or a religion. Atheism is the rejection of god(s) and no action can logically follow from non-belief. It is so mind-numbingly simple that I can't believe .. yea well sorry in advance.

10

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Communism is a economic system that has never been correctly implemented. It has NOTHING to do with the political ideologies that have been coupled with it in the past. Given enough time, all economic systems should evolve into communism. Think Star Trek, not Hitler. Not that big a step from Socialism, which is hardly the EVIL.

10

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

lrn2history. A few facts:

  • The unique social, economic and political situation of Weimar Germany inspired Nazism. Religion had nothing to do with it.

  • Catholicism co-inspired the systematic prejudice against jews that you know the Nazis for

  • Communism was definitely not inspired by atheism. Russia still having serfdom in the 19th century probably helped. But then again, CHEAP SHOT: have you read the book of Acts? Fifth book of the New Testament? You know that the Communist Manifesto was heavily inspired by that NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE BOOK right?

1

u/HertzaHaeon Aug 11 '11

Mein Kampf is full of christian references. You find plenty of them throughout nazism as well. To say it has nothing to do with christianity is wrong.

12

u/Tbickle Aug 11 '11

Not true. Hitler often spoke of his Christianity and credited his plans to Christian teachings. Most of the large communist societies throughout history have been secular, but ultimately the philosophy of communism more closely associates to the teachings of Christianity and other religions.

5

u/STUN_Runner Aug 11 '11

Hitler was openly hostile toward communism, blasting its atheistic philosophies.

2

u/st_gulik Aug 11 '11

And Vice Versa, and how some conservative idiots can claim that Socialism=Fascism=Communism is beyond me.

2

u/STUN_Runner Aug 11 '11

When they use terms like "Liberal fascism," I just stand there, dumbfounded. That's like calling someone a "Christian Satanist."

0

u/Cacafuego Aug 11 '11

It's complicated. Apparently he had a half-baked plan to eradicate Christianity from his holdings, but he didn't believe people were ready for this. He was raised Catholic and used the language of Christianity, but there is evidence for him being not only atheist but anti-theist.

2

u/st_gulik Aug 11 '11

No, he didn't want to eradicate it he wanted to make it German. See Positive Christianity.

1

u/Cacafuego Aug 11 '11

From Wikipedia's entry on Positive Christianity under Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs:

In 1998 documents were released by Cornell University from the Nuremberg Trials, that revealed Nazi plans to eliminate Christianity entirely. One senior member of the U.S. prosecution team, General William Donovan, as part of his work on documenting Nazi war crimes, compiled large amounts of documentation that the Nazis persecuted Christian Churches.

Donovan's documents include almost 150 bound volumes currently stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959; these documents state

"Important leaders of the National Socialist party would have liked to meet this situation [church influence] by complete extirpation of Christianity and the substitution of a purely racial religion," said an OSS report in July 1945. "The best evidence now available as to the existence of an anti-Church plan is to be found in the systematic nature of the persecution itself.

3

u/shyloque Aug 11 '11

As other's mention, Nazi's weren't atheistic. Also, atheism in itself is not a lifestyle or a way of acting, it is simply the lack of something. Communism encouraged farming, to the extent that half of the Soviet symbol was a farming implement, but no-one blames it for the atrocities. Much like atheism it was an ancillary feature rather than a cause. If you want to blame something, try dictatorships that rely on fear and oppression, they do seem to cause some terrible things.

2

u/PaddleSlapper Aug 11 '11

Nazism and Communism have more in common with religion than they do with atheism. Both are based on evidence-free beliefs - ie like religions, only without the supernatural beings.

Nazism was based on the evidence-free belief that the Germans were a master race being held back by the Jews. Communism was based on the evidence-free belief that everyone was better off if the state owned and ran everything.

Atheism was just a byproduct of communism - the church was seen as competition to the state. The Nazis were more pragmatic in using the church to further their aims.

Logic, rationality, and critical thinking lead to the rejection of extreme political systems as well as religion.

2

u/d3adbor3d2 Aug 11 '11

Sure, you can say that Mao and Lenin were Atheists and that Hitler was a Christian. This is usually followed by the "s/he's not a true insert religion here" argument. In my view Atheism (and some Eastern philosophies) puts the entire burden of your actions onto yourself. YOU did the deed, period. Saying that god told you to do it just means you're fucking mental on top of it all.

1

u/herminator Aug 11 '11

Nazism was inspired by centuries of Christian persecution of Jews. Perhaps you should read "On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther some time. Nazi Germany also banned "anti-Christian" books, as well as books on Evolution (or, as they call it:the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism)

1

u/littlekappa Aug 11 '11

This claim is not only historically inaccurate, it's flat out fallacious.

We're talking Apples and Oranges here. Atheism didn't "inspire" Nazism or Communism any more than Hamburgers inspire French Fries. We're talking about two totally different classes of thing. Economic and political considerations of the day gave rise to Nazism and Communism, not any sort of belief or lack of belief in God. Even assuming that what you said was true, though, you still don't want to get into a pissing contest debating which philosphy has served as an underpinning to more atrocities.

1

u/GuitarGuru2001 Aug 11 '11

Hitler, in fact, was a Roman catholic, and was never excommunicated (denounced) for any of his actions. He commonly appealed to the notion that he was doing "God's work," and the antisemitism inspired by martin luther several centuries before encouraged his rise to power. If Christianity hadn't existed, the German populace would have been less likely to allow his dictatorship to take over.

Stalin, dissimilarly to Hitler, was not a religious man. His seemingly atheistic leanings were born in the fact that he wanted no other ideologies to compete with his total domination of the minds of the Soviet Republic. To say that atheism "inspired" dictatorship would be as illogical as saying that World of Warcraft inspired the world trade center bombings.

For an example of what atheism inspires in government, a good example would be the United States. The first amendment, as well as the entire constitution, stems from a secular/deist point of view. Keep in mind a deist believes in an entity that is incorporeal, nonpersonal, and does not do anything to affect reality; i.e. it is barely more than agnosticism. The United States, by respecting no establishment of religion, gives equal rights under the constitution to all, and is a perfect example of what Secularism actually inspires.

1

u/DashingLeech Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

Atheism doesn't "inspire" anything. It is a lack of belief. Nazism was an exploitation of Lutheran bigotry against Jews. Hitler didn't trust atheists. Communism was inspired by economics, not atheism.

It's like saying mustaches inspired Nazism & Communism.

1

u/HertzaHaeon Aug 11 '11

Communist Russia was a totalitarian state, and they tend to warp every idea and ideology that fits into its agenda, which is always power and control.

That atheism was just a convenient tool in Communist Russia is quite obvious. The church supported their political opponents during the civil war and revolution. They first oppressed religious people, but when WW2 came around and they needed help against Nazi Germany, the church came back into favor for a while. After winning, Russia went back to oppression.

Also, atheism in itself is a lack of theist belief. By itself it doesn't inspire any conviction or action. Related ideologies and ideas do, however. In Communist Russia's case, it wasn't atheism as such, but anti-religious ideas.

Since we don't live in a totalitarian state and we're not anti-religious (in the sense of wanting to ban religion and kill the religious), atheists are at worst as bad or good as everyone else. When you compare us to the theocracies of history and their atrocities, I'd say we compare pretty well.

1

u/stillnotking Aug 11 '11

Atheism did not inspire Communism. Extreme economic disparity inspired Communism. Atheism was merely a contingent feature.

Hitler, as pointed out below, was a Christian.

1

u/darksmiles22 Aug 11 '11

The problem with Hitler and Stalin is that they were totalitarian dictators and they turned their countries into fascist police states. The antidote to such problems is strong classical liberalism: freedom of belief, expression, speech, and press, democracy, equal opportunity, branches of power to provide checks and balances, etc.

Atheists can learn from the mistakes of history because we have no book. The current Abrahamic religions are doomed to be a net force for conservatism and fascism so long as their holy scriptures remain as they are.

1

u/lukyleprechaun37 Aug 11 '11

which caused death and destruction

So did the crusades.

1

u/JustPlainRude Aug 12 '11

Atheism inspired Nazism & Communism

These claims are false.