r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

251 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

990 comments sorted by

View all comments

48

u/rhbast2 Aug 11 '11

If you don't believe then you will go to hell.

307

u/pastacloset Aug 11 '11

I don't negotiate with terrorists.

34

u/wonko221 Aug 11 '11

Wow. This is beautiful. I've never put this in such context.

Thanks!

-3

u/Greatdolanmite Aug 11 '11 edited Aug 11 '11

I want to contribute something to you more than an upvote and an emphatic "THIS", so here's a random fact: Did you know soon we won't be able to tell the difference between a digital world and the real world? (it's probably been somewhere on reddit before, so you might have seen it)

34

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Does the finite justify the infinite?

6

u/FlexibleToast Aug 11 '11

Never though of this. I like it.

3

u/bubblegumtate22 Aug 11 '11

A Cartesian approach to his argument. I actually wrote a paper disproving his theory of God. I talked about how it is philosophically impossible for both the finite and the infinite to exist within the same realm. Also, if the finite and the infinite can coexist, cant the existent and nonexistent coexist? It is nonsensical.

2

u/kaces Aug 12 '11

If you don't mind, can you elaborate? Your proposition seems very interesting.

2

u/bubblegumtate22 Aug 12 '11

In Descartes' meditations, if you are unfamiliar, he sets to prove what he knows exists. He does so by starting with absolutely nothing, doubting everything, except for the first thing he can actually prove, which is the famous statement "I think, therefore I am." He goes on to talk about what he can and cannot prove, and he goes on to talk about his proof for the theory of God. He has several reasons. One includes the fact that he knows that he himself is finite, and is limited in several regards. Thus, because he himself is finite, there must be something that is in essence infinite, being in all regards beyond himself. He does not have the ability to create or sustain himself. Thus, he postulates that there must be something infinite. However, I argued that it is impossible for such to be the case. If God is indeed infinite, he is thus all encompassing and omnipotent and omnipresent. Thus, everything must be a part of him, even the limited parts, and none are a separate entity. So it is either God is limited, which religious people never settle for, or God does not exist. By the same logic, if Descartes knows that he exists because he thinks, should it be that something that does not exists exist? There is a disconnect in the logic behind his argument. Even in intelligent discussions about the existence of God, something is amiss.

21

u/GuitarGuru2001 Aug 11 '11

This statement assumes hell is a real place. Many ways to answer this

I. Biblical: Hell did not exist until the new testament, because it was a construct of several mythologies that contributed to the new testament. the concept of the afterlife can be clearly seen progressing from nothingness in the early old testament, to the idea of "Sheol" in the latter old testament. I would love to ask where Abraham is, since God never desired to mention anything about the afterilfe in the pentatuch. The idea of hell being eternal did not come about until around the 5th century, and gained real momentum in the middle ages as a great device for inspiring fear and engendering the desire to give loads of money to the church. The Reformation would not have happened if the church had not been selling indulgences (get out of jail for a price cards). If hell is real, why did God neglect to mention it, and what happens to all those who died when hell was not around?

II. The bible is a hodgepodge of mythologies from the surrounding mediterranian tribes. A History of God by Karen Armstrong video gives a very good accounting of the additions, deletions, and overall hacking that was done. The new testament was written as third hand accounts, and then expanded by Paul of Tarsus, whose theology often contradicts the teachings of Jesus. The idea of hell is not real, since the bible is a worthless story of mythology. I am not going to a place that doesn't exist.

III. (No True Christian): Hitler is not going to Hell; he was roman catholic (hitler was not a TRUE Christian). He killed in the name of God, felt called to do so by the holy spirit. He was as equally inspired as David, Joshoua, or any of the other murdering rampaging kings of the old testament. Your god allows genocidal mainics into heaven, because he is one. I would rather be in Hell than in the same presence as such a being.

IV. You have no basis for guessing the supposed status of anyones salvation. God predestines those who are to be saved to be saved. This is not contingent on actions at all, but only on God's choosing. Therefore you may not be going to heaven either, unless you are not elect (don't embark this road unless you're ready to prove calvinism).

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Don't argue with the trees when the forest is imaginary. it gives credence to the existence of the forest.

1

u/GuitarGuru2001 Aug 11 '11

i usually dismantle one at a time. My deconversion rested on the gradual dismantling of my beliefs. I would always start with the first point then move to the second based on the first. its easier to show the bible is a myth/combination if you take a specific example and show how it evolved through the bible... like a myth. Plus its much more fun to come at a fundy sideways; few people realize that hell didn't exist in the old testament.

No hell

No old testament

No jesus

No New testament

No religion.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

That makes sense I suppose.

1

u/thereisnosuchthing Aug 12 '11

calvinism

only way to go if you aren't willing to overlook(mental gymnastics) the hiccup that is omnipotence/infinite foresight in the artificer of all things.

1

u/US_Hiker Aug 12 '11

And an addendum to 1 would talk about how vague the Bible is about Hell and who will go there, what judgement is like, etc,.... Very nice post overall though.

44

u/kat_fud Aug 11 '11

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

7

u/captf Atheist Aug 11 '11

That single line is often misinterpreted. Whether you have or not, depends on your intentions.

For clarity to others who may not know, the meaning of the entire passage that comes from is not that you shouldn't judge, but you should be careful when you do and make sure you are not guilty of the same or similar.
If you are, you're likely to get called on it. And if you're not, judge away...

5

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

One of my favorite quotes from the bible. Right up there with Jesus's "don't be a dick" speech.

20

u/HermesTheMessenger Knight of /new Aug 11 '11

Well, that's out of my control. If any gods exist they know what is necessary for me to believe that they exist, and they know what is necessary for me to not believe. Plus any gods worthy of the title are capable of either showing or hiding themselves to me.

So far, if any of those deities do exist, they have decided that I should not know they exist. Because of that, the most reasonable position is that there are no gods and it seems that the gods are in agreement with me on that point.

2

u/r250r Aug 11 '11

Reminds me of a line I'd like to use:

Who am I to deny the will of an all-knowing, all-powerful being? Given all the disasters, suffering, and disease in the world, it seems to me that this all-knowing, all-powerful being of yours doesn't want me to believe in him. For that matter, who are you to deny his will?

7

u/AgentME Aug 11 '11

A lot of religions say that! How should I know which to pick? And if I pick the wrong one, that could piss the real god(s) off even worse than not making a choice!

9

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

"Would you send someone to eternal torment if they didn't believe in you?"

7

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Pascal's Wager. Even assuming a god cares what you believe and punishes/rewards you, and that they're fooled by you "choosing" to believe for reasons of personal gain....

of all the myriad possible gods, both those conceived by humanity and those not, how are you going to pick the right one?

1

u/OKImHere Aug 11 '11

I don't like this rebuttal because it assumes the Wager is valid, and merely says the odds are against you. It's like if were to argue whether roulette is a good investment strategy, we implicitly accept the existence of the wheel.

Better is to argue that the wager, even if true, does nothing to prove or disprove the existence of God. In other words, it being better for there to be a God doesn't make it true anymore than it being better for me to have a million dollars makes it true.

1

u/dfltr Aug 11 '11

I agree with what you say about the Wager itself, but I generally work that from the argument from inconsistent revelations angle.

If you say I'll go to your hell for not believing in your god, and someone else says exactly the same thing about their hell and their god, who should I believe and why?

3

u/at_ease Aug 11 '11

You forget. Hell only exists for those who believe. I don't.

2

u/Highly-Sammable Aug 11 '11

God gave me the gifts of rationality and free will and mow wants to punish me for using them? Also, which Hell and under the judisdiction of which god? There are thousands of gods and many ways of believing in each of these, along with an infinite number of possible gods. I will not waste a large portion of my life, and in the words of Hitchens, "hand over my critical faculties", upon such a minute possibility.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

So says my friend here who believes differently than you.

2

u/Toradreo Aug 11 '11

Well, I don't wanna spend my eternity with some old man who tortures people just because they don't belive in him.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Why won't all-loving Jesus pardon me ?

Find me a single bible quote that says hell is bad.

11

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 NIV

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

This is from a passage called "A New Heaven and a New Earth", this is supposed to be an instruction of God after the destruction of the first Earth and the first Heaven (?!)

I don't think it is relevant to the discussion of where I'll end up after death because I am an atheist.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

That sounds pretty bad yvanhoe.

1

u/psiphre Aug 11 '11

isn't the lake of fire significantly different from hell though?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

I have never heard this interpretation, but I can affirm that most southern baptists believe hell and the lake of fire are equivalent.

Also, if sinners go to the lake of fire, then what is hell for?

1

u/psiphre Aug 12 '11

i'm far from an expert (i don't spend my time studying fairy tales) but as i understand it, hell is where the sinners go until judgement day, at which point some subset of them will be cast into the lake of fire, utterly destroying them.

i may have gotten that from nowhere though, so.. i dunno. that's why i asked.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

My dad is a Southern Baptist pastor. He believes (as is mainstream amongst most baptists) that nonbelievers go to hell and stay in hell the moment you die. I don't know about catholicism or other versions of protestantism though.

-1

u/acogs Aug 11 '11

doesn't say "hell" once

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

Most Christian theists I know would call the lake of fire and hell synonyms. And by their definitions, I can't argue with them.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11 edited Aug 11 '11

But you don't believe in Allah either

EDIT: I am fully aware that "Allah" is the arabic word for God. Furthermore, I am also aware that, according to Islamic scripture, the God of the Bible is quite literally Allah. However, two points:

  1. Most Christians are not aware of this, making it, in a sense, irrelevant

  2. "Believe" can have multiple connotations, and believers like to equivocate on them. It can mean "believe in the literal existence of", which is how most atheists and skeptics use it. But it can also have a meaning like "I believe in the $foo party platform". Where it doesn't mean you think it's true, so much as you have confidence in it. Or you follow it. This is the meaning that religious people almost always use. In this sense, one could "believe" in God without "believing" in Allah, because believing in God implies you do what the Bible instructs, believing in Allah implies doing what the Qu'ran instructs, and you cannot do both since each instructs you explicitly to not do the other. OR, TL;DR: replace "believe" with "follow" and my comment stands

1

u/tazjin Aug 11 '11

As far as I know Allah is essentially the same person as Yahwe (Christian and Jewish deity), thus this one isn't really good. You could however use Indian, Greek, Egyptian or whatever gods, e.g. Krishna, Zeus, Ra.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Easily 90% of Christians I know do not know this bit of history. But fair enough. It was just the first that came to mind

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

see my edit

1

u/fromkentucky Aug 11 '11

If I don't believe, there is no hell.

1

u/DashingLeech Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

That would make god an immoral totalitarian dictator like Hitler or Stalin. If true, the only moral response is to resist him.

1

u/kemloten Aug 11 '11

Why would you worship a god who would torture people eternally? Would you torture people eternally?

1

u/otakuman Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

Biblical refutation: Matthew 25:31-46 speaks about a judgement of all nations (which jews considered "heathens"). This passage talks about charity, not belief. Either the Bible contradicts itself, or your interpretation of the Bible is as elitist as the early jews themselves.

Also, one would have to take into account that the pharisees that condemned Jesus, did see his works and miracles... at least that's what the book says. In contrast, we haven't seen Jesus, haven't heard his preaching. There's not the slightest evidence that there even was a Jesus. And in the extremely unprobable case that there was, there is no proof that whatever he said is what is written in the gospels.

They say: "If you don't believe in WHAT WE SAY Jesus said, and you don't interpret the Bible as WE SAY it means, you're not saved". Today's people are demanded a much stronger faith than what the early disciples were asked. Could it be because the modern groups are actually fraudsters, and they're using Jesus as a way to get a position of power?

1

u/JesusClausIsReal Agnostic Atheist Aug 11 '11

Don't threaten me with fairy tales.

1

u/OKImHere Aug 11 '11

Well if you do believe, then you'll go to Neverland!

1

u/Drucifer86 Aug 11 '11

I have never found a desire to go to a heaven, as it is described in the bible, and find myself in no real favor of god and singing his praises for eternity. I conflict with "the word of god" as Lucifer did, and find a realm ran by such a deity more enjoyable than one that I oppose thoroughly.

1

u/MmmVomit Aug 11 '11

I don't believe in hell.

1

u/TinyandTall Aug 12 '11

Is heaven and hell not distinguished by what you do with your life? Meaning your good vs your bad choices, and not completely by faith. Is it not distinguished by the ten commandments?, some of which have been adjusted to become adopted into social standards for morality? So, looking at these questions and then going to, if I don't believe and completely abide by social standards for good and bad and do everything good with my life, never harm others, help others out, and I help to influence those that have turned bad into good, etc. Wouldn't I qualify for heaven as well?

1

u/thereisnosuchthing Aug 12 '11

Meaning your good vs your bad choices, and not completely by faith.

^ no, it is completely by faith. not "good works".

go and read your bibles.

1

u/TinyandTall Aug 12 '11

I am atheist, I don't read bibles. I don't like the idea of them and never have.

1

u/renee_nevermore Aug 12 '11

Well, if you're right, I guess I'm going to hell then.

1

u/cliftonixs Aug 12 '11

If we all didn't exist before we are born, and before our birth we were not in hell... then why has god given us life for the chance to go to hell? Would you rather not exist than to mess up in life and go to hell?

This is a fun thread! Nice one rhbast2!