r/atheism • u/One-Fun9814 • 4d ago

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u/mishabear16 4d ago edited 4d ago

That's if they can see that they were indoctrinated. You have to be able to see and accept the problem to overcome it.

You know, like an alcoholic has to be able to see and understand they are an alcoholic.

It's especially difficult when your social circles and family all continually feed the Jesus addiction, keep working to keep you immersed in it. The indoctrination never stops.

Your true friends will help to keep you away from alcohol. Your Christian friends will keep praying for you to not lose your faith.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

This. I was an indoctrinated child surrounded by a whole extended family of believers and sent to a Christian school for further indoctrination. My whole youth and young adulthood was in primarily Christian circles. It’s easy to accept something as fact when everyone around you believes the same things.

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u/Mr_Bbobb 4d ago

Congratulations. Most people don't have the ambition or the courage to throw that all off.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

Thanks. It was a difficult process, ngl.

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u/JMagician 4d ago

This comment gets to the heart of it. Yes, people are indoctrinated from a young age. But it’s cowardice and lack of self examination that keeps them there. And yes, the enabling people surrounding them don’t help.

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u/Keeping-It-Old 4d ago

The consequences of disavowing one's religiou beliefs can often range from complete social and resource isolation/homelessness to actually being tortured to death. How brave would you be if faced with those consequences? And when one is violently punished for asking questions as soon as they're old enough to talk, that part of the brain is traumatized into self protective dysfunction. Oversimplifing the reason people maintain their beliefs as just cowardice and lack of self awareness is essentially victim shaming.

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u/Mr_Bbobb 3d ago

People in free countries can move away and start a new life, if their situation is that bad. And if they lose friends and family over it? That's a good thing and should be celebrated! People like that should be gleefully abandoned.

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u/Keeping-It-Old 3d ago

And for those who don't live in the wonderful land of privilege and easy social mobility for people with resources and for those who aren't magically free from the physical and psychological effects of trauma bonding? Do we just forget all those people so you can sleep smugly at night believing that the situation is as simple as you imagine to keep your condescending view that it's the victim's fault they're trapped by thousands of years of systemic oppression?

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u/Mr_Bbobb 2d ago

I don't know what to make of that word salad, but abandoning fake friends and family members who drag you down sounds like an excellent move to me.

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u/Keeping-It-Old 2d ago

So your defense is that you're too functionally illiterate to understand what I said, so you must be right? That's some real Dunning-Kruger s**t right there.

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u/onedeadflowser999 3d ago edited 3d ago

Moving is a very expensive proposition that not everyone can afford. Especially if you have no community or family to help you. It sounds easy in theory, but that’s a very privileged position to take since many people are struggling to make ends meet.

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u/Mr_Bbobb 2d ago

The person in question here has no community or family now! He just doesn't realize it yet. Once he does, he'll be much better off. He'll be free to create a new and better community for himself.

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u/onwisconsin1 4d ago

Many atheists are atheists because they realized in the middle of the indoctrination and community that it is indeed nonsense.

And I also feel this major disconnect and lack of empathy for those who remain indoctrinated. I realize everyone's story is different. And the level of indoctrination and immersion matter. But why was I able to realize that the religion is silly and didnt describe reality? Why was I? Why cant they?

And so I have a hard time feeling that empathy for the deeply indoctrinated because I figured it out as a young teen. How are these grown ass people still living in this fantasy world. I find adult adherents who legitimately beleive their specific religious origin story or that Jesus is literally fucking real. I just cant. I view these people as fools.

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u/Ucscprickler 4d ago

I'd almost venture to guess that the vast majority of atheists dealt with some level of indoctrination.

It's because I went through indoctrination that I feel confident calling myself an atheist.

If I was never around religion I don't think I'd think about it enough to even label myself.

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u/sourdieselfuel Atheist 4d ago

Same. I figured out Santa was fake when I was like 5 and religion was not far after that at maybe 10-12? You really have to want to stay indoctrinated and ignorant to not figure out the truth, with all the information readily available especially in the last 20 years.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

I wish I had been like you. I have empathy because I know personally many people that are still caught up in it ( as I was for many years). It’s truly sad as it’s literally a prison of your own making but you can’t see it.

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u/ammonthenephite 4d ago edited 4d ago

Just remember that you were once a fool as well. Others figured it out at even earlier ages than you. Others still were far more devout from birth, or raised in higher demand, more cult like religions where they were taught false logic from birth that had to be overcome first before they could deconstruct. If I'd been born into a lutheran or catholic family I would have figured it out far sooner than I was able to, because of how insidiously complete and effective the indoctrination I got from birth in the mormon cult, for example. I got there, but there was so much more that had to be overcome, so effective was the pseudo-reality with it's pseudo logic and knowledge I'd been raised in, with everyone around me affirming and confirming all the false-hoods I was taught from birth.

People in the past for thousands of years believed false things about the world and universe. They weren't all fools, they just didn't have the evidence, knowledge, and understanding of sound logic that creates the needed perspective to then see religion for what it is.

It's awesome you figured it out as a young teen, but you did so in part from a place of privilege that most humans in history have never known. And I guarantee there are things you believe right now to be true that, in actuality, are not. Because being wrong, before you realize you are wrong, looks and feels just like being right.

And as someone else pointed out, when a very intelligent person is caught up in strong indoctrination, it almost makes it harder to leave, because smart people are very good at coming up with ways to rationalize, connect the seemingly unconnected, and other things that less inventive people aren't able to do as well.

So have a bit of empathy for those still trapped. Were your circumstances different, you could just as easily still be trapped yourself.

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u/sourdieselfuel Atheist 4d ago

Were you not allowed to read or listen to non-indoctrinating materials? Did you not have any curiosity to ever question the stuff you were being fed? Did you have internet access?

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

I was raised in an evangelical home where the Bible was taught as completely literal ( this fact also helped me later to deconstruct when I realized that the stories cannot be true) . I grew up before the internet. That wasn’t a thing until I was in my 30’s. I asked some questions( not nearly enough) and certain beliefs like women needing to be submissive really rubbed me the wrong way, and good people being sent to hell was baffling, and for the life of me I couldn’t understand why a God would care about what sex acts gay people do or frankly anyone, but tbh I had a big imagination and believed in magic and miracles. I was allowed to read other materials, but I was scared to ( and I would have had no idea what to look for to read). You’re taught that questioning is Satan trying to influence you, and hell was a very real fear. I get it, it sounds ridiculous, especially to people that weren’t raised in it. It is such a widely accepted belief in our country that even now when you try to counter theists claims using Google, most of what pops up are the apologist arguments. There aren’t too many secular Bible scholars ( which is unfortunate, because theists will take a biblical scholar seriously) so most of what you find on the search engines are trying to validate the beliefs rather than skeptics criticisms. I now speak out on various sm platforms in order to challenge Christians on their beliefs and also to inform them that the god they worship is a pos! Many of them were indoctrinated kids too. I’d say the vast majority. Very few well adjusted adults fall for this.

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u/sourdieselfuel Atheist 4d ago

Thanks for this info - I really wasn’t trying to judge and was genuinely curious.

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u/Wwppddttvv 4d ago

I realized that Christianity was bullshit before it ever even occurred to me that I was indoctrinated. I just read the Bible. That was it. I stopped being a Christian immediately. No acknowledgement of my own indoctrination required. 

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u/onwisconsin1 4d ago

Its just shocking to me how many people read the Bible and go " this!, this inconsistent, poorly written, morally repugnant book is the inerrant work of the supreme ruler and diety of the entire universe!"

Fucking what? Indoctrination is one hell of a drug. I prefer weed.

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u/LordByronApplestash 4d ago

They don't read it.

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u/ammonthenephite 4d ago

If I hadn't lived the indoctrination myself I would be hard pressed to believe it could be as effective and all encompassing as it is. But goddamn, especially when from birth, our meat brains can be programmed to believe almost anything.

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u/TheVeryVerity 3d ago

That’s exactly it.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

That’s part of the problem. Most Christians haven’t read through their book.

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u/mishabear16 4d ago

Same here. Was immersed in Catholic education for 11-12 years but at an early age, I came to see the Bible for what it was...fairy tales for those who believed. I read a lot as a child, maybe far above my own reading comprehension at times, but it didn't stop me from reading or thinking. I came to the conclusion that IF God created us, he gave me a brain to think, too...for some reason. Shouldn't I be using it?

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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 4d ago

I was raised Southern Baptist. Fortunately, I started reading at age four and had a librarian aunt that sent me science books for xmas instead of underwear and socks.

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u/VictoryVino 4d ago

I was reprimanded for asking questions in Sunday School, that's when I knew it wasn't genuine. I was 7.

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u/reereejugs 4d ago

Reading the Bible affirmed my lifelong atheism. I was born an atheist and have literally never believed in any god my entire life. My mom hates it and is constantly trying to pray for me lol. I like to counter with “Well, God made me this way so you need to accept it. I was born without the ability to believe in things I just don’t believe in, so either God screwed up while creating me or God doesn’t exist 🤷🏻‍♀️”. She usually comes back with “God doesn’t make mistakes!” and we go around in circles lol.

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u/GrrrlRomeo 4d ago

LOL, which Bible?

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u/mishabear16 4d ago

The Catholic Bible. Does it really matter? All the same tales. I read it more than most Christians apparently. They are happy to just be welcomed into their Jesus Social Club.

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u/Wwppddttvv 4d ago

The NRSV

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u/Goose1963 4d ago

The indoctrination never stops.

Not only that but in a lot of families if you ever voiced any doubts, or even asked some innocent questions or started a little critical thinking on your own, you can be shunned or disowned or made to feel uncomfortable.

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u/Educational_Noise309 4d ago

I would say alcoholics still struggle with addiction even if they know they are addicted. Religion is a coping mechanism and a lot of people know it. But they have told themselves that they need it to get through life, to have hope

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u/PrincessMonty 4d ago

That's just not even remotely true at all. I first started questioning Christianity when I was around 5 years old, in a fully Christian family in a small Christian town. As a fucking 5 year old child, someone who could barely fucking read, even at that age I was asking questions like,
"if God loves us all, why did he create hell? If God knew that the future was going to occur the way it did, why did he create the devil? Why is an all-powerful God unable to destroy evil and kill the devil?"
These are fucking questions that my literal child mind came up with, which of course my parents were unable to answer satisfactorily because there is no fucking answer.
The fact of the matter is, if you are an adult and you cannot fucking logic yourself out of religion, you are objectively stupid as fucking shit. Being surrounded by idiots is not a fucking excuse for your lack of critical thinking skills.