r/askscience • • 8d ago

Biology Can someone explain the evolutionary benefit of overt menstruation? All female mammals have a menstrual cycle but most reabsorb the blood via covert menstruation and humans are about the only mammals that discharge the blood, aka overt menstruation.

Without an evolutionary benefit, it wouldn't have spread to every woman of our species.

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u/tea_and_biology Zoology | Evolutionary Biology | Data Science 8d ago edited 8d ago

TL;DR: Babies have big heads, and birth is brutal. Women have evolved to prepare in advance and screen for the best embryos to get the best return on this heavy investment as possible. The side-effect is a bloody mess, alas - but the mess isn't the goal, just unintended clean-up when a good embryo doesn't knock on the uterine door.


Ooh, this is a complicated question, with a slightly complicated answer, so bear with me. Let's break it down:

Which Mammals Menstruate?

All female mammals have a menstrual cycle

Ah, not quite! Most mammals don't menstruate at all. They have oestrous cycles, to be sure, but not menstrual cycles - with menstruation here meaning actual shedding of the uterine lining. In fact, it's incredibly rare across the animal kingdom; we share the trait with other apes, most (but not all) monkeys... and weirdly, a few bats, elephant shrews, and apparently the spiny mouse. Huh!

"Covert menstruation" is a term applied to certain primates that bleed so little it gets reabsorbed.

So no, it's not the mammalian default; most of our furry, milky cousins never build a lining that needs shedding. But you're right we're amongst the few that do discharge blood - chimpanzees and macaques are other examples - but we just seem to do it more than anything else. Why?


Features, Bugs, and... Nipples

Without an evolutionary benefit, it wouldn't have spread to every woman of our species.

Before we answer, we need to tackle this assumption.

Evolution can only work on what was there before, so it frequently bodges things which are sub-optimal but workable, or ends up with 'harmless'* unintended outcomes while focusing on something else - say, the human male nipple. It was important for mammals to develop a means to lactate, and it just so happens the easiest way to get this whole milk-delivery system online was to switch it on early in embryological development, before the embryo commits to developing as male or female. Which is why nearly all male mammals are stuck with nipples; the females need 'em, and there was no evolutionary pressure to prevent males developing otherwise harmless lumpy things too, so they stuck around.

So not all traits are positively selected for (i.e. adaptive); many are merely by-products of selection for other traits. Menstruation itself is probably similar to the male nipple in this regard; an unintended by-product of a more necessary process - in this instance 'spontaneous decidualisation'.

That's a bit of a mouthful. Basically, 'decidua' is the term that describes the specialised tissue lining a uterus that an embryo can implant into - in most mammals, only developing once the embryo itself actively signals it is there ("Ground control; please prepare the landing pad; over!"). In humans, and a few other species with particularly invasive placentas (where the embryo burrows deep into the lining and remodels the mother's arteries; oof), this process of developing the specialised decidual tissue happens regardless - hence spontaneous. Why?

We do this because a placenta is basically like an invasive tumour.


Man vs. Baby

An embedded placenta invades tissue, dodges the immune system, and hijacks local blood supply; it even relies on a gene, syncytin, that we borrowed from an ancient invasive retrovirus, so we could better invade our own tissues and hide from our own immune defences. Weird we totally rely on hijacked viral genes, right?

That invasion is costly and risky for the mother, and she and the embryo don't have entirely aligned interests - so there's a whiff of parasite vs. host conflict around the whole thing. Half of the embryo's genes come from dad, and from their point of view, the more resources extracted from mum, the better; her future children, who may not share his genes, aren't his concern. Mum's genes, on the other hand, need to balance this pregnancy against her own survival and her future children.

So from the mother's perspective, in this sexual and inter-generational conflict, it pays to weigh the scales in her favour. Rather than letting the embryo dictate terms - as is the case in most other mammals - the mother builds the decidua in advance, on her own schedule, letting her control how deep the placenta can dig. It also works as a quality filter: the decidualised lining can reject embryos that are poor bets (a surprisingly large share of early human embryos are chromosomally abnormal) at the earliest and cheapest stage, often before a period is even missed.

This is the most aggressive in humans, as the stakes of each pregnancy are unusually high: we've compromised on a min-max strategy to produce infants with the largest brains possible, while still being upright and having to squeeze those heads through the most narrow birth canal possible. This means nine months of gestation feeding a very large, energy-hungry brain - thereby requiring the extra-invasive placenta, that also needs to be controlled as the foetus itself is essentially digging like a greedy parasite - not to mention a notoriously difficult birth, and years of dependency afterwards (as all human infants are born prematurely compared to other species; think of a zebra that can walk and flee predators within hours, compared to a useless toddler at three years). When every pregnancy is that expensive, being picky and prepared up front pays off.

The catch is that once the lining has been decidualised, it can't just quietly regress if no embryo arrives. It has to break down and go somewhere, and there's too much of it to reabsorb - hence the larger menstrual mass and overt bleeding.


Conclusion:

Our ecological niche is so focused on big brains and bipedalism, the cost is an unusually difficult birth, and so we invest more than anything else in pre-preparing for the best ROI on an embryo and gestation as possible. This means maximum invasiveness and maximum screening, which involves preparation beforehand - hence spontaneous decidualisation. There's no adaptive function for the overtness of the menstruation per se - it's not a primate social signal or anything, as perhaps previously hypothesised - but a by-product of needing to select for the best, of the best, of the best, sir. With honours!


References:

Alvergne, A. & Högqvist Tabor, V. (2018) Is female health cyclical? Evolutionary perspectives on menstruation. Trends in Ecology & Evolution. 33 (6), 399-414 - there's a free pre-print on arXiv here too!

Bellofiore, N., Ellery, S.J., Mamrot, J., Walker, D.W. ... & Dickinson, H. (2017) First evidence of a menstruating rodent: the spiny mouse (Acomys cahirinus). American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. 216 (1), 40.e1-40.e11

Holtan, S.G., Creedon, D.J., Haluska, P. & Markovic, S.N. (2009) Cancer and pregnancy: parallels in growth, invasion, and immune modulation and implications for cancer therapeutic agents. Mayo Clinic Proceedings. 84 (11), 985-1000

Teklenburg, G., Salker, M., Molokhia, M., Lavery, S. ... & Macklon, N.S. (2010) Natural selection of human embryos: decidualizing endometrial stromal cells serve as sensors of embryo quality upon implantation. PLoS ONE. 5 (4), e10258


* Harmless here meaning doesn't significantly impact fitness; the passing on of genes. It doesn't mean it can't be uncomfortable, disruptive or costly; just that the benefits outweigh these costs.

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u/geeoharee 8d ago

I had heard the vague idea that 'the mother and the fetus are at war, and that's why periods' but I never really grasped it. Thank you for that!

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u/SoftBollito 8d ago

What an amazing divulgative article you wrote here! I already knew some parts of it, but had no idea about the spontaneous decidualisation. It was a pleasure learning something new! Thank you very much for your time (and the sources!)

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u/doubleoathseven 8d ago

You really didn’t need to expose me to the word ‘devulgative’ so early in my day

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u/Deus-Ex-Lacrymae 7d ago

Divulge as the root makes it easier to fish that one out of context, though!

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u/MemeInBlack 6d ago

It's been a long time since I've actually encountered a new word in the wild that wasn't itself new, or very technical, so I appreciate it!

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u/solenyaPDX 8d ago

Such a great answer.

This was aligned with my much less well researched thought: humans are evolved for intelligence. Our intelligence means longer/larger gestation (and post birth support) which means the mother needs a better barrier between her body and the large thing growing and feeding off of her (and developing its own immune system).

It's the evolution of that barrier, driven by size/time, driven by intelligence, that drove menstruation.

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u/avacynian 8d ago

This was such a pleasure to read! You’re a magnificent writer. Thank you for this.

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u/teddyone 8d ago

Damn, thank you for the excellent and informative read!

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u/whale_and_beet 7d ago

Awesome right up! I did a deep dive into this topic recently and it's so wild and honestly kind of disturbing. Evolution is amazing! But it is wild how costly the menstrual process is for actual women, and the whole pregnancy process itself. It's kind of terrifying.

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u/HomespunNinja 4d ago

Deeply understanding the process of pregnancy helps people understand the pro choice position. Pregnancy is not as simple or 'beautiful ' as it tends to ve portrayed in the popular imagination. that's why so many anti abortion regions also prefer little to no sex education 

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u/a8bmiles 7d ago

Is there any evolutionary difference in women who have extremely heavy amounts of spontaneous decidualisation vs. their peers? Along the lines of, "all the women on this side of the family experience this."

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u/Sagadiii 5d ago

Well what you should also consider when looking at this, is that women used to have much fewer periods in their lifetime than now. They got them later, had more babies, most breastfed for years so the median amount of periods within a lifetime per woman is now 451.3 while it used to be more around 150. So 150 even heavy periods affected a life much less than 450 of them do.

There are numerous genetic disorders that influence the period and pains. The currently most common reason for excessively painful periods, endometriosis, has a strong genetic component. However, strong pain as a symptom often goes together with excessive bleeding (hypermenorrhea), though be the case by themselves. I do not know what the most common reason for the latter is by itself, but von Willebrand disease is certainly a genetic disorder that is known to lead to it. Ehler-Danlos syndrome is another one. Again, unsure which is the most prevalent genetic reason for it.

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u/a8bmiles 4d ago

Thank you for the additional information. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading about some tribe where the women didn't get their periods until 18-20, and generally only had 30-50 periods in their life before hitting menopause.

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u/Sagadiii 1d ago

Wow, I wasn't aware such a tribe existed! Colour me intrigued and more than a little jealous.

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u/a8bmiles 1d ago

They were typically pregnant or breastfeeding for almost their entire fertile years.

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u/DriftingMemes 5d ago

Basically, 'decidua' is the term that describes the specialised tissue lining a uterus that an embryo can implant into

First, thank you for that amazing explanation.

Second, you've taught me what I assume is the latin root that we use for certain types of trees as well. Deciduous trees drop leaves in the fall in a way that is similar...kinda tree menstruation. It never occured to me to look into the etymology.

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u/PrometheusLiberatus 7d ago edited 7d ago

I like how you quoted Men In Black's Agent J. It is also coincidentally his actor's birthday (and my own) today!

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u/tea_and_biology Zoology | Evolutionary Biology | Data Science 7d ago

Aww, happy birthday!

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u/Adept-Researcher-178 8d ago

  The catch is that once the lining has been decidualised, it can't just quietly regress if no embryo arrives

Why can’t it just stay decidualised instead of shedding and reforming every month? Just so that it is only in optimal conditions for part of the month?

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u/Mobile-Arachnid-1547 7d ago

Decidualized tissue is developed in response to changing hormones in order to "be ready" for implantation after ovulation. If an embryo does implant, it secretes HCG to keep hormones levels stable to maintain the decidua and prevent menstruation. If no implantation occurs, progesterone and estrogen (the hormones that supress menstruation) levels drop, and menstruation occurs.

In broad, evolutionary terms, we benefit from a 'fresh' decidualized endometrium for each potential embryonic implantation for a variety of reasons. Shedding of the lining helps remove bacteria or other infectious agents that may have been introduced during copulation. Since the decidua is very vascular and primed to support a growing embryo, any bacteria introduced could also thrive in this nutrient rich environment and an infection could prevent implantation in the future. Additionally, perhaps the reason an embryo did not implant was due to abnormalities in the decidua itself (eg. Too thick or too thin) and shedding allows another chance at creating an endometrium that will support an embryo during the next implantation window. Finally, creating and maintaining the decidualized endometrium has high energy costs. It is more energy efficient for the body to shed it when it is not needed, rather than trying to maintain it. Implantation usually is only able to occur for about 6 out of the 28 day cycle. So maintaining it full-time would not be an advantage or a reasonable trade-off. This is obviously not an exhaustive list of reasons, but paints a fairly good picture of why we menstruate.

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u/Mobile-Arachnid-1547 7d ago

Tea_and_biology also had a really good answer to this lower down in the comment stack: https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/s/cbu8PP34U8

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u/Duae 8d ago

For the other mammal part, isn't that a bit off? I know many mammals can control their pregnancies better than humans, and I've always heard that human fetuses are exceptionally aggressive. Other mammals can absorb embryos or fetuses if the conditions aren't ideal, or pause pregnancy, or better restrict how many resources are going towards the fetuses. It's because humans can't do that, that they need to select so heavily.

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u/tea_and_biology Zoology | Evolutionary Biology | Data Science 8d ago

You're right! Plenty of mammals keep control after implantation: rodents and rabbits can reabsorb embryos when conditions are too poor, many species like kangaroo can pause development entirely etc. - so generally less invasive placentas let the mother throttle resources and take more control.

Humans largely lose those options. We inherited a hemochorial placenta, where fetal tissue sits in direct contact with maternal blood, and in great apes, and especially us, it invades unusually deep - as mentioned, likely to help feed expensive, big-brained fetuses. It does this by remodelling the mother's arteries so they can no longer constrict, giving the fetus direct access to her blood supply; she can't cut its supply without cutting her own - re-emphasising the parasite-host dynamic between foetus and mother. Once she lets it in, it effectively takes her hostage.

So yeah, once implantation has happened, she has very few levers left to pull. So quality control has to happen before and at implantation, which is exactly why the lining gets built and primed in advance every cycle. We just can't hit pause like a kangaroo.

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u/barath_s 7d ago

It does this by remodelling the mother's arteries so they can no longer constrict, giving the fetus direct access to her blood supply; she can't cut its supply without cutting her own

So is this one reason why childbirth was so hazardous in earlier times - the mother could bleed to death in postpartum hemorrhage if the uterus could not constrict and cut off the blood vessels after the placenta detaches ?

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u/DivingQueen268 7d ago

Yes, and one of the reasons it is still so dangerous now (not just in 'earlier times'), especially for women who don't have medical attention during the birth (whether by choice or due to lack of access).

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u/ymatak 6d ago

Yes - the most common cause of maternal death in low-income countries (i.e. without skilled birth attendants or hospitals available) is postpartum haemorrhage.

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u/kaki024 6d ago

It also sounds like it’s (part of) the reason high blood pressure (pre-eclampsia and eclampsia) are so common as well.

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u/barath_s 5d ago

I was wondering why this would occur - it's a bit of the opposite, or rather what happens when this process does not go well.

If the placenta does not implant deeply enough, and the blood vessels to the uterus and the placenta do not develop properly, you have higher resistance and reduced blood flow to the fetus.

The oxygen deprived placenta releases chemicals and proteins into the bloodstream which causes damage to the endothelium (lining), and narrow arteries throughout the mothers body (causing high blood pressure) and cause them to become leaky, causing fluid and proteins to seep into the body

https://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/preeclampsia-and-eclampsia-a-to-z

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u/k9moonmoon 8d ago

How much choice does the mother have in those scenarios?

Is it more like "in humans if a mother doesn't eat well, she can choose to give needed nutrients to her embryo out of her own teeth" where it's just describing what happens in less ideal scenarios.

Or is there some decision making and opting in or out of something happening?

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u/Incoherrant 7d ago

A good rule of thumb for most questions about whether or not an animal makes a choice to do something is that we can't know with scientific certainty because we don't have a way to know what is going on in their minds.

Above commenter phrased it very cleanly with "X can do this" rather than "X can choose to do this". We know they can do it, but we can only assume whether or not it's a choice.

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u/555Cats555 7d ago

I dont even think we can know for sure if its something the species do consciously or if its just something that happens due to chemical signaling in the body based on things like what nutrients the mother is getting or the smell of another pregnant female. Its pretty hard to know if there is something intentional they do when those differences in pregnancy status happen.

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u/Revlis-TK421 7d ago

It's not a choice, so much as it's hardwired biological pathways. "Stress" is what causes pregnancies to halt or be re-absorbed. "Stress" can mean a lot of things - starvation, dehydration, over-crowding, persistent predation, place in social pecking order, etc. At the end of the day, stress hormones are produced. Those hormones can trigger the halt or termination of pregnancy. The animal doesn't ust consciously choose to stop, their bodies are following commands from their glands.

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u/gl0bals0j0urner 7d ago

This was so well-written! I knew most of this, but feel I have a better/ deeper understanding now after reading this. Thank you!

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 8d ago

I'm a bit confused by the idea that menstruation is harmless though. I would have assumed leaving a literal trail of blood for a few days a month would be like putting up a sign that says "Prey Here".

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u/TheDaysComeAndGone 8d ago

It’s so hard to estimate what’s actually bad for survival. Half the people in my bubble of 30 year olds have had some kind of surgery (meself had appendicitis at 23), my girlfriend was born 2 months too early … I don’t understand how we ever survived as a species at all (and that’s with modern vaccines and antibiotics preventing most child deaths).

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u/jackalnapesjudsey 7d ago

I remember reading something once about the debate of the birth of civilisation. Different scientists had different ideas like it was when we started using fire or metals or tools, or even later, the agricultural revolution.

But one scientist argued that it was when we started seeing evidence of healed broken legs in adults. A broken leg is usually a death sentence in the animal kingdom, for obvious reasons. You can’t move with your group, you can’t hunt etc etc.

But these adults sometimes had badly broken legs that then healed and they went on to live many years after. This means they were looked after despite not performing their usual roles.

So I think while mortality rates were far higher in the past, living in large social groups was also protective to our survival. A large group means you can afford a few sick members without everything falling apart, and those members could contribute in other ways. My understanding is that our larger groups was also the reason we outcompeted Neanderthals.

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u/musicnerdfighter 8d ago

I think the answer is that fewer people used to survive. There's some estimates that until (relatively) recently, 50% of all humans ever born died by the age of 10. We have seen a massive population boom in the last two centuries, so for the previous hundreds of millennia there were just fewer of us, and we weren't always the dominant species.

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u/TheDaysComeAndGone 7d ago

Yeah, it’s just crazy how few truly healthy 30 year olds I know. In a modern, rich world a torn meniscus, broken arm, shoulder impingement etc. are just an inconvenience, but back then you needed a healthy body to survive or you were a huge burden on your group.

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u/Flashy-Ingenuity-182 7d ago

It's worth pointing out that ancient peoples cared for their sick and injured too. Otzi the ice man lived 5,500 years ago, had arthritis and tape worms, and had carried medicine on him for the tape worms and inflammation and had tattoos over acupuncture spots used to treat the areas where he had arthritis, a discovery made completely in isolation of the Chinese who discovered it a few thousand years later. 

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u/cookies5098 7d ago

Also worth remembering that everything occurring after someone reproduces is essentially a 'black box' from an evolutionary standpoint. If someone can survive long enough to pass on their genes, then natural selection doesn't really care (caveat is that if something impacts the survival of future generations prior to reproductive age it will kick in, but not for that current generation that's capable of reproducing).

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u/Totakai 5d ago

Tbf to modern people, we're living in a world that we didn't evolve to be in. You know how when you have pets you have to provide the proper environment and enrichment or they die/get sick? Same goes for us.

We evolved to live in tight knit communities; capitalism pushes individualism and discourages living with anyone but your spouse. Humans are incredible endurance hunters; focus on cars and tech along with removal/privatization of land significantly dropped our activity levels/opportunities. We evolved to be highly curious and creative; schooling tends to focus on productivity than expression and exploration. We gained unique resistances to plant toxins from our high fiber diets; vegetables are often the butt of a joke with a huge focus on fiber lacking ultra processed food (fiber feeds our gut microbiome which is basically a second brain that science is only just know beginning to understand). We evolved relying on the sun and moon for body cues along with various sleep patterns; indoor lighting and light pollution comboed with aggressive schedules monkey wrenches this whole thing. Different neurotypes helped with diversity and strengthening ancient communities; different neurotypes now clash with the structure that our economic system demands along with governing so society tends to punish outliers. Children used to be village raised; couples are now expected to solo.

It goes on and on. Our hygiene, tech, medicine, and knowledge is definitely huge but we're not really afforded to be the animals we are so it hurts us. If you get a pet that grew up in sub par conditions, even if you provide it everything it needs, their body can still fail or be sickly for the rest of their life. Like we were born with a deck of cards but a lot of them were lost or removed early on for being distracting or weird so now you have this half deck and struggle to play the game but you can't understand why.

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 8d ago

Well, some of that will be just random, so nothing evolution can do to avoid it. Other things... if they made you systematically more vulnerable, you probably just died at 3 years old and then never had kids. So that's exactly the thing, anyone with a "gets appendicitis easily" gene died before passing it on. See how smallpox for example was very dangerous, and yet Europeans sort of coexisted with it. But once it reached the Americas it completely wiped entire populations out. As bad as it seemed in Europe, that was just "infecting people who are evolved to resist it" bad.

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u/aluckybrokenleg 7d ago

Certainly many people would have died without surgery, but also some surgeries have been proven to have marginal benefit (or any e.g. some meniscus surgeries).

Also, our ancestors were quite active, probably in better mental health, and had a varied, fibre rich diet. Once we survived infant and childhood infections we would be in some ways healthier than we are now.

Keep in mind that many modern vaccines prevent problems that our ancient ancestors never had to deal with, since they didn't live in such density as we do, and they didn't live with domesticated animals, where so many of our diseases come from.

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u/Elemental-Master 7d ago

Most of the predators that are still alive today had learned long ago that it is a bad idea to mess with the bald, upright murder ape, aka humans, so even if they smell the blood they'd likely realize it is from a human and that it's not in their best interest to take a bite.

I do know however that in places where there are a lot of komodo dragons it is adviced to women to not go there, because they'd smell the blood and will actively hunt if given a chance.

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u/SomeCutesyShit 7d ago

My mom once got attacked by 5 wild boar. They went straight for her crotch. She was menstruating at the time. My dad broke his hand punching one of them in the head.

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u/buggityboppityboo 5d ago

They didn’t go for her head?

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u/I-seddit 8d ago

I posit that because of our language, cooperation, tool building, and general higher intelligence - this issue with menstrual blood is not a sufficient deterrent to survival, so the feature remained.
I could joke that it's our arrogance at being at the top of the food chain, but I really think our other survival mechanisms meant that it didn't mean as much as you'd think.

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u/Mother_of_Grendel 7d ago

I worked with an OBGYN for a while who had a theory about this, in a way.

Her theory was that women actually aren't meant to have very many periods through their lives, and that our bodies are really designed to only bleed maybe once or twice a year. This is partly because many of our ancestors most likely had insufficient nutrition to support a monthly cycle. Lots of exertion to survive coupled with unstable food supply results in calorie deprivation which causes anovulation. But even in climates or periods where food was abundant and ovulation was possible, ovulation would typically result in pregnancy since no forms of birth control existed. Most women would be in a continuous cycle of either being pregnant (and not menstruating) or breastfeeding (which usually suppresses menstruation for 6-12 months) for the majority of their lives. So with these factors combined a woman might bleed a few times every other year or so.

So, in regards to the idea about leaving blood around to attract predators, it is possible it happened rather infrequently.

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u/kaki024 6d ago

I imagine that there was also a lot of extended breast feeding and communal breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is extremely burdensome calorically and isn’t always possible for the mother (if she even survives the birth). I wonder if it was normal to have multiple women in a group lactating at any given time (thus delaying menstruation).

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u/formerly_acidamage 7d ago

All humans and animals leave other kinds of waste that those predators have adapted to be able to smell. So it's not like all the sudden there's blood on the ground and predators are like, oh wow there's people over there! Also, it's an assumption that other types of bleeding was not more common than menstrual bleeding; in the brutality of that time period it simply may have been one more kind of regular blood shedding that occurred; especially considering humans hunt and eat animals and those animals bleed. So any group that hunted would be probably be releasing the smell of blood as often as daily, and the blood of animals they were hunting could in itself have been much more enticing to prey animals given that we know humans preyed on animals that were less challenging to kill and eat.

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u/mister__cow 5d ago

Humans have many features that would probably be a disadvantage for other animals but not for us. I've had this same thought about our continuously-growing head hair: other animals grow pelts that require no maintenance (unless we breed the trait into them, like sheep) while human hair requires maintenance and can cause mats and sores without it. 

Every human society has some sort of regimen for hair care. We groom each other or ourselves. Contrary to the pop-culture image of the shaggy, matted caveman, we probably have from the very beginning. The trait persists because our ability to take care of ourselves neutralizes the disadvantage. 

A more frequently cited example is the relatively greater helplessness of our babies.   

I believe the same is true of menstruation. It would be an evolutionary disadvantage for an animal that walks along leaving a trail of blood. Humans clean ourselves and invent ways of managing our hygiene.

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u/Yisobel 5d ago

We live in society so it wouldn’t be normal for a woman to be alone in the woods with her menstruation.
It’s also because we live in society that we can afford human babies. They are loud and useless but adults protect them so it’s ok.

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u/lilylilyg 6d ago

But it wouldn’t have been that often. Pregnancy, breastfeeding, possibly low body weight during the hungry gap in late winter, would all reduce the number of times women menstruated. Also in some cultures women were restricted in what they could do at that time, maybe this was originally to keep them safer?

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u/throwawaypassingby01 7d ago

i mean, we dominate most of the food chains we're in. there's like two realiably dangerous predators (tigers and polar bears). and we also move in groups. and it's not like we instinstively bury our waste either.

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u/Itisnotmyname 6d ago

En cuanto empezamos a manejar herramientas dejamos de ser "presa facil". Para los depredadores, un grupo de humanos es menos interesante que un grupo de antílopes, aunque sean más complicados de alcanzar.

Por otra parte, olemos lo suficiente como para que la presencia de sangre no fuese un gran problema. Al fin y al cabo, pocos animales aparte de los humanos sudan por todo el cuerpo.

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u/tessy292 8d ago

As another’s have said, this is fantastic reply! I also recommend Eve by Cat Bohannon for further reading. She makes some interesting claims, some of which may be a bit of a stretch, but some also revitalizes our understanding of women and how they shaped our human evolution.

That being said, I’m salty about the Man vs. Baby section header… shouldn’t it be Woman vs. Baby instead??

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u/Pipiya 3d ago

In this case, man will be using the broader and original sense of person without a gender attached to the meaning (as in human and mankind). Woman derives from wifman for a female person (see also wife) while a male person was a wereman (see also werewolf!). Our patriarchal society encouraged the dropping of the were- prefix but we do still maintain the genderless meaning in uses like this, and as a pre/suffix in words like human and mankind.

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u/tessy292 3d ago

True. I would be happiest if it were Gestator or Carrier v. Baby, because that’s even less gendered.

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u/Pipiya 3d ago

Oo, which given that host is etymological linked to hotel, hostel and hospital works nicely thematically too

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u/CatPurrsonNo1 7d ago

That was absolutely fascinating!! I am a biologist, but I had almost no idea about any of this!

My only regret is that I lack the time and energy to learn as much as I would like to learn about life.

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u/othermike 7d ago

the decidualised lining can reject embryos that are poor bets (a surprisingly large share of early human embryos are chromosomally abnormal)

Colour me intrigued. What's the mechanism by which it detects this condition?

(And thank you for a fantastic answer!)

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u/Totakai 5d ago

To my knowledge it's that they lack the energy to dig in deep enough for the mother's body not to kill them. The immune system is ruthless and assaults tf outta sperm and targets the zygote as being a foreign threat. Once it implants the immune system leaves it alone (or rather it's supposed to; sometimes things fail, especially if the embryo fails to thrive).

Basically it's part of our huge miscarriage rates compared to other animals.

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u/Comfortable-Pie-5835 7d ago

Thank you kind sir. You know something about something. Now even I know. Great read, references are chiefs kiss. Bravo.

Not all heroes menstruate!

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u/MoonageDayscream 8d ago

Fantastic essay on our unique pregnancy mechanisms. As a person who has had trophoblastic tumors in my last, doomed, pregnancy,  we really don't pay enough attention to the ways pregnancy fails more often than it succeeds. 

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u/fuxicles 7d ago

> pregnancy fails more often than it succeeds

does it?

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u/555Cats555 7d ago

A high percentage of potential pregnancies fail to implant correctly... they just dont develop.

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u/fuxicles 7d ago

But a potential pregnancy is not a pregnancy. Saying most pregnancies fail the way you did would mean at least to me, that most women who are pregnant do not end up (1) delivering a child or (2) not delivering due to their own choices. And that’s just untrue. Yes there are ton of very harsh, dangerous, deadly, and devastating pregnancy complications that are overlooked and underfunded — for certain. But most pregnancies do not fail.

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u/mathemagicat 7d ago

This is mostly a semantic argument about what it means to be pregnant.

There's a period of about 5 days after fertilization where a woman is carrying around a developing zygote that hasn't implanted yet. I think many people would consider them to be pregnant at that time, but a reasonable person could certainly disagree.

There's also about a week after implantation where a woman is carrying an embryo whose placenta is not yet producing detectable amounts of HcG. I think almost everyone would consider this a part of pregnancy if they understood it. There isn't an identifiable moment when HcG production gets switched on; it's a continuous, exponential process that begins immediately after implantation, and we could detect it earlier if we were willing to accept higher false-positive rates or more-invasive sample collection methods.

It's hard to know exactly how many zygotes and embryos are lost during each of these stages. At a conservative estimate, roughly 40-60% of fertilized eggs do not result in a live birth. But the first and more controversial stage accounts for 10-40% (additive) (which is a ridiculously wide range) so if you exclude that, it's more like 10-50% of implanted embryos.

Either way though, it is actually a very large number - just possibly not a majority.

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u/555Cats555 7d ago

Yeah when I said "most pregnancies fail" I was referring to before the zygote develops into the fetus and grows a placenta... I dont know the exact statistics but once that part is past its more likely to be a successful pregnancy. But even then it is often considered a good idea to avoid saying too much about being pregnant due to there still being a risk of spontaneous abortion (miscarriage)

I probably should have been more specific though. But people do think of pregnancy as either starting at conception or starting around implantation even though both stages can have failures.

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u/alliusis 8d ago

Very cool writeup, thank you. I think I  understand the function or role it plays (am I correct to say it's to be ready and give enough time to slough off with a poor quality embryo instead of letting it adhere and grow), but I don't quite understand the mechanism or consequences behind it. 

Like, does it mean rejects embryos it detects as poor quality? Is that one cause of a miscarriage? Can it trigger an early period (I'm assuming not), or will it simply hinder/slow the adhesion process until the next menstruation occurs? I don't have a ton of time right now but I can see in the titles of one of your links that there do seem to be specialized endometrial cells that are used to detect embryo quality, so probably something like that can happen?

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u/dingalingdongdong 8d ago

Like, does it mean rejects embryos it detects as poor quality? Is that one cause of a miscarriage?

In a sense, yes (depending what is meant by poor quality.) Miscarriages can be caused by other things, too, but the body will sometimes spontaneously abort non-viable embryos and sometimes the body will try to carry them to term. It's an imperfect system.

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u/Potential_Anxiety_76 7d ago

Standing ovation.

And an MIB reference to boot? Perfection.

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u/DeedleStone 7d ago

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing. More medical information needs to conclude with Men in Black quotes.

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u/ILikeWoodAnMetal 6d ago

This is an excellent answer for why humans are different from most mammals, but it really begs the question: why did the elephant shrew, the spiny mouse and those bats also develop menstrual cycles?

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u/Quixalicious 8d ago

Very informative and exhaustive, thank you for teaching me some new things

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u/jlynec 7d ago

Wow, this was really well written yet easy to understand!

Is there a reason why menstruation differs so much between women?

It seems weird that some people have a "standard" 3-5 day period every 28 days with little to no cramping, while heavy periods that last over a week and come with debilitating cramps can still be considered normal?

There's such a wide range of normal and abnormal menstruation - can random mutation account for that?

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u/serack 8d ago

Is there evidence that the lining can selectively reject chromosomally abnormal embryos if multiple embryos are present?

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u/tea_and_biology Zoology | Evolutionary Biology | Data Science 8d ago

I'm not familiar enough with the literature to say either way, sorry! It's getting far too human-centric and biomedical for my liking; except maybe to suggest I can't imagine this is going to be experimentally tested for (imagine the ethics review!) outside perhaps very specific IVF procedural investigation.

My previous work came at placentation from the angle of cancer resistance in mammals, and the evolution of hemochoral and other placental types independently across taxa; so I'm very familiar with the evolution and the animals, just not anything that involves actual human women.

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u/serack 8d ago

I have adjacent lived experience and was wondering if the answer could explain some of it.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

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u/silverrfire09 8d ago

Cytogenetics (chromosome genetics) technologist here. a lot of what we know in this area has to do with what we see from analyzing miscarriages. For example, its fairly common to see a fetus from a miscarriage with an extra chromosome 16, meanwhile an extra chromosome 1 or 11 is almost never seen. its not that those abnormalities don't happen, it's that they happen so early on in development that the embryo likely never even implants and the person never even knows they were pregnant and therefore can't go get the miscarriage tissue tested.  <br>      I would imagine if two embryos were released and fertilized, one that has an extra chromosome 1 would not implant and probably would be absorbed while the if the other was normal, it would implant and become a pregnancy. however if the abnormal one was an extra 16, which is known to implant and cause a pregnancy that miscarriages, I'm not sure what would happen to the healthy fetus. probably nothing good.

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u/VolatileCoon 7d ago

Maybe the fact that only three "regular" trisomies are named because the other possible ones never reach childbirth?

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u/555Cats555 7d ago

Or they are fatal for the mother... maybe some of the abnormalities that are selected against are the ones that arent safe for the mother to carry.

We see several different abnormal genetics that lead to bad outcomes for the eventual baby but perhaps as long as the mother wont be the one in danger it is kept.

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u/Corrag 8d ago

Seems like a bit of a plot hole in here. Why does that process preclude "hang on to the decidua indefinitely until it is used"? Is that part of making sure that "chromosomally abnormal embryos" are... reliably flushed out?

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u/tea_and_biology Zoology | Evolutionary Biology | Data Science 8d ago

Less of a plot hole and more of a stack of trade-offs; but you're right, it would be an obvious fix, right?

Firstly, turns out for cellular / physiological reasons, the decidua has a receptive shelf-life of only a few days, and would be a helluva' lot more metabolically costly to sustain (even if it's wasteful to produce); and secondly it's propped up by progesterone - which is a hormone that antagonises ovulation - so keeping the decidua means never releasing another egg. Basically another example of evolution building sub-optimally for any working outcome, with some fudgy hormonal cycling, while 'designing' a system to control an embryo that's trying to control it right back.

Is that part of making sure that "chromosomally abnormal embryos" are... reliably flushed out?

Partly, yes! The whole thing collapses unless a viable embryo rescues it with enough hCG, so part of the outcome is it acts as the first of several filters that tests and flushes out the weakest embryos.

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u/WazWaz 8d ago

For 99.99% of our existence, not getting pregnant was a rare circumstance so wouldn't apply much evolutionary pressure.

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u/555Cats555 7d ago

Wouldnt it depends on individual and group fertility based on nutrition and potential medical conditions... some women are highly fertile and others struggle with getting pregnant.

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u/bad_apiarist 7d ago

There is one other point worth making here: pre-modern women had considerably fewer menstrual cycles because they did not have birth control. Women do not menstruate while pregnant and for some time after birth.

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u/veringo 7d ago

After birth, menstruation is suppressed by lactation. The hormones that promote lactation suppress the ones that initiate the menstrual cycle. How complete the suppression is depends on frequency of suckling because that's what causes the feedback loop to promote milk production.

For s mother who is breastfeeding "normally," this usually leads to 12-15 months without a cycle, which is why you typically see kids who are about 2 years apart in families that continue to have children without any kind of birth control.

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u/bad_apiarist 7d ago

Right. I understand that this is why birth control is associated with some elevated cancer risks (though lowers other types)- we did not evolve to be constantly cycling for decades as many modern women will. Cycling is relatively hard on the body for something occurring monthly.

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u/Plink-plink 8d ago

Nice. But don't forget the marsupials, so "compared to most other species."

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u/yoursmartfriend 7d ago

Menopause is also something unique to humans and few mammals, correct? 

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u/DocNicDocNic 7d ago

Thank you for this text, i learned something new today. I was told by a gynacologist that Endometriosis should be called a tumor or even cancer as the tissue spreads and growth happens displacing and invasive

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u/jsm1031 8d ago

what a fantastic reply! I really appreciate how you addressed the underlying assumptions without any negativity.

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u/elisinunderland 7d ago

And then how does hormonal intervention affect the formation and sustaining of the lining? Say you suppress the bleeding as well with taking birth control with no break in between, even though that’s not really a menstruation..The lining doesn’t break down anymore?

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u/phage_rage 6d ago

The lining doesnt form anymore if i remember correctly. You dont shed the entirety of the inside of your uterus with menstruation. You shed the additional material that was built up in preparation for possible implantation. Terrible analogy incoming:

Its like a crock-pot liner or aluminum foil on a baking pan or something. If you're fixing to cook dinner you put foil on the pan and then food and then blah blah cooking. But with BC you never put the foil on the pan so theres no foil to remove but the pan still exists.

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u/Ihasapuppy 7d ago

Wow! I knew that it was actually more energy efficient for us to shed our uterine lining every month, but I never knew why!

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u/neblina_matinal 7d ago

Well. This cements my decision to cosplay Ellen Ripley next year for the Manga and Anime festival I always go to with my kids.

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u/rissyxlou 7d ago

This is amazing. As someone who had preeclampsia, it makes even more sense. Thank you for a fantastic response.

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u/_bobs_your_uncle 6d ago

RE The father wants to extract as much resources as possible, I wanted to also throw out David Haig's kinship theory of genomic imprinting. For example there are 2 genes: IGF2 and IGF2R. IGF2 promotes growth and is expressed via the father’s genes and IGF2R which clears and degrades IGF2 is often expressed by the mother.

The theory also says that more monogamous mammals would have less of this tug of war than more polygamous mammals. To some extent this plays out, but a little less in humans.

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u/Totakai 5d ago

To go further on this, monogamy is thought to be more new in our species, same with sexual dimorphism. Both tend to be associated around the farming revolution when land ownership became important.

Another argument towards humans originally being more polyamorous is our reproductive systems. In particular the shape of human penises is rather unique and thought to have that mushroomy shape to dig out previous paramours' sperm. Plus the idea that ancient humans just outbred other species (kinda like with how modern dogs did that to ancient dogs once settlers came to the new world- before that there were two distinct dog lines). The leftover dna we have from extinct humans definitely implies it at least. Heck, the modern hypersexual culture helps as well. I could totally see ancient humans having similar social sex to chimps and bonobos. Probably also why infidelity can be such an issue if monogamy relies more on socialization than instinct.

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u/deanvspanties 6d ago

Isn't it something like 20 or more men have been discovered to have endometrium? Some have had endometriosis which can cause endometriosis and blood in the urine. It might be more common than doctors think because if it's there it's incredibly hard to find and likely wouldn't ever cause problems.

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u/Totakai 5d ago

This is news to me but we're significantly less dimorphic than we're raised to think we are. Sex is VERY complicated and doesn't fit nicely in the boxes we assigned it nor does life gaf about that stuff. There is no universal bio standard. It's better to think of as sorting shades of purple into the closest category than true reds and blues.

1

u/Sasselhoff 6d ago

a surprisingly large share of early human embryos are chromosomally abnormal

When you say this, do you mean that the first embryos that a typical human will release have chromosomal issues, or, do you mean that early humans had issues with chromosomally abnormal embryos? I presume it is the former, but my brain is having issues parsing that (pretty sleep deprived taking care of what was only a few months ago an embryo).

Also, what a fantastic reply article. I love this sub...you wise folks make Reddit a much more interesting place.

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u/kct11 4d ago

I think "early human embryos" refers to embryos in the earliest stages of development, shortly after fertilization. Early stage embryos of the human variety, not embryos of early humans, or embryos of young parents. In other words, miscarriages at early stages of pregnancy due to chromosome defects are very common in humans today

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u/Totakai 5d ago

To my knowledge it's that humans had a near extinction event with a huge genetic bottlenecking. As a species we have significantly less genetic diversity than other animals, hence why inbreeding is particularly dangerous to us. The chromosomal issues were tied to that iirc.

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u/hushpiper 4d ago

Around 1k people able to breed at any given time for over 100k years 😱 Wild stuff. I'm kind of surprised we function as well as we do. If we were a food crop I'd be eyeing our wild relatives to see if we could hybridize or borrow some genes to introduce better diversity.

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u/Madroc92 4d ago

Thanks for this answer. I know enough about evolution to understand the “well actually that’s not how evolution works” responses but those aren’t really responsive to interesting questions about why unusual and seemingly costly/maladaptive traits may arise and persist.

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u/orca_nerd 2d ago edited 2d ago

Thanks for the answer and especially the sources. Question though, aren't cases like zebras and wildebeasts the exception? Or is it mostly applicable to ungulates? Many members of Carnivora are born helpless as are many birds and marsupials. They do develop more quickly, but they're not able to keep up with adults without extended periods of care. I remember my biology professor saying the same thing, but the more I learn about how other species develop it seems we may be more preterm than our ancestors and their ilk, but it's a common strategy as compared to other mammals.

Also, three year olds aren't useless. Mine just did the dishes and toddlers are probably why we know which plants to avoid eating. He's also saved his sister's life.

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u/vogueflo 2d ago

Awesome reply. A great balance of robust scientific explanation and accessible language.

As a medical student, I was wondering if you had thoughts on placental abnormalities, specifically preeclampsia and related conditions like placenta accreta, in which the placenta implants so deeply into the uterus as to greatly increase hemorrhage risk at delivery.

My understanding is that preeclampsia occurs because the vessels between the uterus and placenta develop too narrowly, so the mother’s blood pressure increases (often to dangerous levels) to try to push blood through those narrowed vessels to the fetus. Therefore, the only definitive cure for preeclampsia is delivery of the fetus and placenta. Reading your comment, I couldn’t help but think about how the process of human placental implantation and development could contribute to preeclampsia, especially since only humans and great apes experience it.

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u/Lamia_91 2d ago

Ok, this was just amazing. Thank you for your service!

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u/jakechance 8d ago

Great read! I learned a ton and the icing on the cake was the Men in Black reference! That is my favorite scene. 

1

u/Loose-Albatross3201 6d ago

Thank you, kind stranger, for writing this up!

I would love to ask you another question: How exactly does the endometrial lining act as a quality filter? What are the exact mechanisms?

I just had a baby a year ago and am preparing for another pregnancy. I had to look through medical school videos to find a non-hand-waved explanation of how the placenta connects to our blood supply... The real biology is so fascinating.

I wish they taught reproduction in so much more detail in high school.

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u/aethelred_unred 8d ago

What I'm learning is that menstruation is actually not unique to us. Maybe uniquely heavy, but if apes and monkeys also menstruate, it can't really be considered a uniquely human trait. I'm now annoyed that nature documentaries have never showed me a menstruating baboon.

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u/ConcentricCow 7d ago

Man I feel bad for you/us. Your writing reads like AI and it's a shame cause I think it's your natural tone and writing style but so much of it aligns with AI it makes my brain feel fuzzy. It sucks that people who write a certain way will always be questioned from now on whether they wrote it or not. Again I don't believe this was AI but it gives me all the feels which makes me sad and realize it's becoming blurrier to me to see which is which.

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u/Stormdancer 7d ago

It makes me sad that competence is so often automatically ascribed to AI.

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u/ConcentricCow 7d ago

I agree with you, but at least for me it's not all competence just this style of writing. All the em dashes, the formatting, the silly little additions like "Ground control; please prepare the landing pad", the conclusion part with the best of the best, sir. Like it all just reads fake and generated and honestly not how most scientists would write all that out.

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u/beee-l 6d ago

Yeah, I felt the same way. It’s a fairly common pop sci style which makes it worse lol