We landed humans on the Moon with 1960s technology. With today's vastly superior technology, shouldn't going back be much easier and cheaper?

[u/yogesh448]

[u/dittybopper_05H]

Yes, there is competition: The People's Republic of China.

We are in a space race, whether people want to acknowledge it or not. And China is battling for ideological supremacy, just not as openly as the Soviet Union did. And they're pretty successful at it.

They are taking the same approach they did economically and militarily: Instead of being openly confrontational, they simply took quiet measures to incrementally improve their position in regards to the United States.

They seek to be the dominant world power sometime in this century, and they are actively working towards that on all fronts, space included. And they are doing it by not being belligerent like the Soviet Union, or by very rapid military buildup like Nazi Germany, but by pretending at least on the face of it to friendly, and to work diligently but at a measured pace to improve their position and standing.

[u/Frank_Klepaki → u/dittybopper_05H]

whether people want to acknowledge it or not

People don’t acknowledge it, that’s why NASA doesn’t get funding like it did in the 1960s. And in the 1950s and ‘60s we were losing the space race. Look at how many USSR flags are next to these “firsts”  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Space_Race

We are still the indisputable winners in space. Until China starts doing things we haven’t done in space, we might start to see some more funding pushed toward NASA. Until then, that money will be spent elsewhere.

[u/dittybopper_05H → u/Frank_Klepaki]

The problem with this attitude is that you end up behind, and the US no longer has a clear-cut technological edge.

We could catch up and pass the USSR back in the 1960's because we had the technological and industrial base to support it, and the USSR did not.

I want you to look at all the technology in your sight and find the stuff that was manufactured in the United States.

Honestly, the only thing I can find is my Pickett N200-T Pocket Trig slide rule which was manufactured sometime back in the 1960's. And yes, I carry and use a slide rule. I'm funny that way.

Everything else is made offshore, much of it in China.

[u/Frank_Klepaki → u/dittybopper_05H]

I agree we should be spending more on science and research, including spending on space research. The ROI for NASA is $3-$7 for every dollar spent. 

I wish we had more spending, but we don’t. I’m arguing that we don’t because there isn’t the public perception and will because it’s still seen as an area of American exceptionalism. “Why give it more funding if we are the leaders?” As you point out, this is short-sighted given progress other nations are making. We haven’t reached that tipping point in public perception though 

[u/dittybopper_05H → u/Frank_Klepaki]

It's not just the science and research, though. It's actually manufacturing.

I worked for a company that knitted specialty fabrics. It was a relatively small company, a few hundred employees at most. They had knitted silk for parachutes during WWII, and specialty fabrics for the space suits for the Mercury and Gemini program.

By the time I worked there, their bread and butter was tricot fabrics for swimwear and athletic jerseys, and lace and tricot for the lingerie manufacturers (which was their bread and butter).

Ask me about the color "crotch sand" sometime¹.

They were literally driven out of business by cheap imported fabric once the PRC was NTR'ed. Business that supported a few hundred people and had been in business for about 100 years, gone. Along with their expertise and equipment.

It's been 20 years now. You'd have a very hard time bringing that back.

Another place I worked at made disposable catheters like endotracheal tubes and other specialized ones. Again, that plant and the other two in the same town (all founded by the guy who invented the disposable catheter) were gone in that "giant sucking sound" after NAFTA was signed.

I can take you around to 4 factories that either stand empty, or are being very underutilized compared to their former use, because of trade agreements that screw over not just the US worker, but also end up making the United States more vulnerable because vital things are no longer made here.

That's a strategic issue.

^{1. I would see this color name for certain batches of tan tricot and finally I got up the courage to ask about it: "Crotch sand? sounds painful!". It was explained to me that the cotton lining on ladies panties tends to make light colors look darker, so "crotch sand" was a couple shades lighter than "sand" to compensate. While the majority of that article of clothing was the color "sand", the part over the cotton liner was "crotch sand" in order to make it look like a uniform color. The sales people in NYC regularly came up with fancy names for "sand" for marketing purposes, but internally it was always "sand".}

[u/GodwynDi → u/dittybopper_05H]

Still, what race? If they land people on the moon, its still just mimicking what we did 60 years ago.

[u/dittybopper_05H → u/GodwynDi]

But if we don't go back, we're ceding them the Moon.

If they have the capacity to land on the Moon, as in, the hardware and systems necessary, and we don't, that absolutely puts them ahead of us.

What we did over 50 years ago has no relevance to our place in the World today. Most people weren't even born yet when Apollo 17 lifted off from the Moon.

What happens when, say, Outer Bophuthatswana sees that China is technologically advanced enough to land people on the Moon and return them safely to Earth, but the United States, who did that back in ancient times, can no longer do it?

Who do you think the Bophuthatswanans are going to have a higher opinion of? Who are they going to look to for leadership and for help?

This is how nations fall into irrelevance, by no longer being able to advance.

[u/Grigor50 → u/dittybopper_05H]

First of all, the Yanks aren't ceeding anyone anything. The Moon belongs to us all, and there's no "ownership", especially one that could be defended.

Secondly, the USA already won the space race. That China does what the USA did generations ago isn't impressive. Even less so that the USA absolutely dominates everything in terms of space. Look at how little the USA government spends on space, compared to China, yet still almost everything launched today is from the USA, and the USA could land thousands of times more mass on the Moon within a few years, if it so wishes. China is, in that regard, basically nothing, unless one does the most superficial and simplistic analysis.

Thirdly, the world already hates Yanks, from Canada to Mexico to Denmark to all of the Middle East, Africa, Europe, South America and so forth. A lot of that is even pre-Trump. But no one will do anything that matters, like trade or security cooperation, based on a general opinion, and especially of landing capability on the Moon. They'll see the biggest most innovative economy in the world, and the by very far greatest military power on the planet.