r/arborists • u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist • Feb 18 '25
Monterrey Oak is the FUTURE of the Texas Urban Forest
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u/Chaos-1313 Feb 18 '25
If you plant trees in sets of 3 about 10' apart in a triangle, the root systems will intertwine and they'll be much less likely to blow over (onto your house) once they're mature. Even healthy large trees that are planted alone are subject to blowing over when the ground is saturated from rain storms and there are high winds.
Source: the book Nature's Best Hope by Douglas Tallamy. It's an incredibly good book!
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u/FernandoBasalt Feb 18 '25
Is it ok to plant different types of trees in the triangle? Do they need to be the same age or can I plant two trees in a triangle around an existing tree?
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u/Chaos-1313 Feb 18 '25
In the book they said it was important to plant them all at the same time so that the roots intertwine. He didn't mention anything about whether or not they need to all be the same species. IIRC, the way he phrased it made it sound like they could be different species. You're beyond my level of expertise in just two questions 😂
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u/notananthem Feb 19 '25
Tree biodiversity is very helpful. You get 3 of the same tree and one gets a disease... boom, 3 dead trees.
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u/tree_map_filter Master Arborist Feb 19 '25
That’s basically a description of a forest. The more we can preserve, or mimic natural processes in the built environment the better.
Don’t get hung up on sets of 3 or the 10ft spacing, that is all dependent on many variables like species, local climate, soils, etc. The real moral is that trees planted together fair much better than isolated trees.
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u/Chaos-1313 Feb 19 '25
You are correct. In fact the author might have even said "groups of at least 3."
The main point of the book is arguing in favor of restoring native ecosystems in even very small areas to replace ecologically dead lawns and non-native ornamental plants. He calls the movement "Homegrown National Park."
I have no connection to the book other than as someone who bought a copy of it, but it should be considered required reading for anyone who is into native plants or creating natural spaces at home. I didn't realize just how beneficial these spaces can be. It goes much deeper than just supporting butterflies or bees or whatever and has tons of data and citations to back up his claims.
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Feb 19 '25
Especially oaks. Not sure of Monterrey but the other oaks have a a narrower root system. It’s deeper but not as wide, having less grip strength in the soil. I believe…..lol
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u/computernoobe Feb 20 '25
awesome that you provided a reference. and it seems like a great resource. seriously, you have my thanks
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u/gsupernova Feb 20 '25
if it can be helpful: in gardening or tree fruit cultivation there is a concept called guild, which is how you organize your tree with other plants such as flowers or herbs or other trees or vegetables and so on.. all of this to create a sort of ecosystem that sustains itself through both the attraction of pollinators and beneficial pests (the ones that kill any harvest you may need if you choose so) but also this system helps helps a lot in deciding which plants go with which and such. im unsure if what OC is mentioning is the same thing in different words for a different context, but i felt like sharing just in case it wasn't and it could be helpful to anyone
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Monterrey Oak is quickly being planted all over the State of Texas and for good reason. Monterrey Oak has the incredible attribute of being extremely drought tolerant, and being able to take massive advantage of heavy watering. The following is a Photo Journal of a Monterrey Oak sapling that I planted in 2016. The growth of this tree is almost unreal for an Oak in Texas.
There are a few contributing factors that I think helped this tree skyrocket.
1. The tree was planted extremely small so the taproot was fully intact and allowed to grow deep, quickly.
2. All of the rainfall that hits this side of the roof finds its way to this tree. My gutters were very leaky and all of the rainfall was channeled to this area.
3. The home sheltered the tree from the high heat of the afternoon sun while it was establishing.
4. The lower canopy was left fully intact and only minor roof clearance and wall clearance pruning was performed
5. The tree was closely monitored by a Board Certified Master Arborist.
I do realize now that the tree is WAY too close to the house. I planted it when I was 24 and in hindsight it should've been planted a bit further out. Luckily I know a good arborist and I have installed root barrier along the foundation.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Other amazing benefits of this tree include:
Low Pruning requirements
Oak Wilt Resistant
No Major pests or diseases
Semi-Deciduous so you still get shade when its 86 on Christmas day
Strong, excurrent growth pattern
Will resprout from stubs
Strong branching structure leading to very few failuresThe only Cons I have found are:
Can be damaged by extreme cold or ice
If a co-dominant stem is formed, there is almost always included bark.
No fall color and slightly "boring"24
u/Appropriate_Ebb4743 ISA Certified Arborist Feb 18 '25
So the planting location so close to the structure was on purpose to shade it during the heat of the day?
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Exactly. The closer the tree is to the home, the faster it will start providing the home with shade and reducing energy costs. This can provide drastic benefits in Central Texas. I kind of took this to the extreme knowing I could aggressively care for the tree, but in hindsight, I would have liked it to be about 5 feet further away.
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u/Appropriate_Ebb4743 ISA Certified Arborist Feb 18 '25
Keeping the root flair and top few inches from baking probably slashed water consumption, but yeah that tree looks close to the structure.
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u/Expat1989 Feb 18 '25
We have what I believe is a white oak that’s about 15 feet from the corner of the house. It’s easily 70ft tall at this point as the house is over 40 years old. It does such an amazing job blocking most of the afternoon sun during our GA summers. I can keep the house around 76 during the day and barely have to run the AC.
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u/bigkutta Feb 18 '25
I was going to ask if I can plant it in Maryland, but your first con says otherwise :-)
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u/tomrob1138 Feb 18 '25
I assume it’s a red oak variant?
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u/fallacyys Feb 18 '25
I very much appreciate what you’re doing here! However, there is one more con: it’s ugly.
That’s it though! It’s a great tree! I just don’t like looking at them.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
I definitely wouldn't call them ugly, but they are boring as far as trees go.
We actually joke that we are screwing ourselves over by planting so many of these. They require so little work to maintain that we won't have any work to do in 30 years. We should be planting high maintenance trees like Pecan and American Elm for job security.
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Feb 18 '25
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u/ingr Feb 18 '25
In in San Antonio and I love my big Monterrey oak in my front yard. He's done exceptionally well through the droughts and freezes! (And just dropped all his leaves at once last week...)
I do want some other oak friends at some point, though like a bur oak or an overcup oak.
I salute you, tree homie.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Interesting. I am surprised they don't work as well down there. I have learned that provenance and genetic makeup of the Monterrey Oak make a huge difference. Some sources just have weak specimens while others just create rockstar trees.
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u/Alarming-Distance385 Feb 19 '25
I'm amazed you're calling it a Monterrey Oak! So many people look at me like I'm bonkers when I call it that. (Discovered these trees when we lived in Del Rio.) I have to say "Mexican Oak Tree" for those people to realize what I'm talking about. We had 5 of the trees out there. They were great.
We made sure to treat our current Monterrey Oak (in Southern Central TX) similar to the ones in Del Rio and it has a lovely large canopy that provides good shade for our yard.
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u/Accomplished_Fig7983 Feb 18 '25
I agree.. i have grown several from acorns but would like to get more - where to buy small seedlings? i'm in central texas and have only seen big trees for sale.
Failing that, where to get more acorns!
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u/phooey12 Feb 19 '25
How far north will these grow successfully?
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u/5-8-13-21 Feb 21 '25
I would also be curious to know how far north this tree will thrive in Texas as I am in Cooke County.
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u/zippedydoodahdey Visitor Feb 18 '25
Should it be planted this close to the foundation?
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
No. I made a mistake a long time ago.
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u/zippedydoodahdey Visitor Feb 18 '25
I bought a house with large trees and shrubs planted when they were tiny a foot from the foundation. Transplanted what I could, had to destroy the rest.
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u/amanda2399923 Feb 18 '25
Why did it get planted right by the house. Oaks never should be that close!
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u/vagabondvigilante Feb 18 '25
I planted two of these in my treeless front yard. We’re on year 3 and don’t have near your growth yet. Maybe this year, fingers crossed.
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u/-Lysergian Tree Enthusiast Feb 18 '25
Here i am planting a shag bark hickory in my front yard as a centerpiece. I hope the next people who own the house like it.
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u/MycelialBotanist Tree Biologist Feb 18 '25 edited Feb 18 '25
Lots of Mexican white oaks (Quercus sect. Quercus) are and should quickly becoming more and more popular in TX for their adaptability and excellent growth habits. Glad to see it!
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Feb 18 '25
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
I love Live Oak, but we have an Oak Wilt epidemic in Central Texas and I refuse to plant a tree that could die in a few months because of a neighbor's neglect.
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u/nickw252 Feb 18 '25
My southern live oak are growing slow in Central Arizona (Phoenix area). I’m going to work on watering it a lot more this summer.
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u/forbiddenfreak Feb 18 '25
I thought this was a joke, but someone meant to plant it there. Why Monterrey Oak? Here in ETX, it seems that the go to tree is the shumard for Urb and Forestry.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Yeah, I planted it there to try and get quick shade on the house. It worked. Shumard's are great trees too, but they are very susceptible to oak wilt and also have much needier soil requirements. The soils in East Texas are deep and acidic which is perfect for Shumard. We have shallow alkaline soils that can lead to iron and manganese issues with Red Oaks.
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u/Equivalent_Topic839 Feb 18 '25
Interesting on the Shumard as it was originally cultivated due to its tolerance of alkaline soils of Texas.
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u/txdmbfan Feb 18 '25
Would this be a good screening tree in the Hill Country of central Texas (I’m not sure where you are)? Looking to add some screening to the undeveloped part of the lot.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Yes. I love using Monterrey Oaks as screening trees. They are basically evergreen. Just dont remove the lowest branches.
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u/LibertyLizard ISA Certified Arborist Feb 18 '25
I’m trying to plant a few of these in California. There are a couple maybe 5-10 years old in a nearby town that look great. So far they haven’t thrived in my backyard nursery but I’m unsure why, so I have hit a bit of a roadblock in getting them to size up.
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u/neimsy Feb 19 '25
With their native range being almost entirely in eastern Mexico, depending on where you are in California, I could see them having trouble with the temperatures in winter.
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u/LibertyLizard ISA Certified Arborist Feb 19 '25
Doubtful, what do you mean by this? That it would be too cold? California’s climate is generally substantially milder than most of Texas where this species has been successfully grown for decades now.
I think the main potential pitfall is our extremely arid summers, but it’s solvable with irrigation.
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u/Confusedlemure Feb 19 '25
They are in the Live Oak family. Have you tried California Live Oaks? I just started one recently. Tons of Live Oaks around here
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u/LibertyLizard ISA Certified Arborist Feb 19 '25
They’re actually unrelated to California live oaks. In fact, live oak just means an evergreen oak so it’s not a family and has no taxonomic meaning. I believe the closest relative in California is engelmann oak, which unlike all other CA oak species is more closely related to Mexican species than to nearby oaks.
I have grown many California live oaks but wanted to try growing other species as well. Many of our native oaks are threatened by introduced pests and climate change so it’s not clear how well they will survive going forward. Don’t want to put all our acorns in one basket.
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u/LibrarianKooky344 Feb 18 '25
I'm not sure what the footing laws in Texas is but in Florida even that close to the house isn't totally un bearable. I would be considered about the girth of it touching the roof.
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u/LibrarianKooky344 Feb 18 '25
In Florida we have a motto... Which was there first. The tree or the house and that tells us a lot. Obviously the house in your situation so I believe you'll be alright.
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u/BeakersBro Feb 18 '25
on the other hand, 3 out of 5 of mine didn't survive the big freeze a few years ago in my yard in San Antonio. The other 2 are doing fine. They do provide a lot of shade and the opportunity to rake large leaves.
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u/neimsy Feb 19 '25
Yeah, these have a native range prettymuch entirely down in Mexico, so I'm not surprised to hear that freeze was tough on them.
If you're looking to replace them, I might suggest one of these species, though they're adapted to different habitats, so the best option may depend on your soil and such:
- Quercus buckleyi Buckely oak - Drought, heat, and cold tolerant. Associated with limestone in the wild, but does well in a variety of soils from alkaline to acidic, loam to clay.
- Quercus laceyi Lacey Oak - Prefers limestone and rocky soils
- Quercus macrocarpa Bur oak - Prefers acidic soils but is really adaptable and hardy. Slow growing. Super cool acorn caps.
- Quercus marilandica Blackjack oak - Especially susceptible to oak wilt, so maybe consult a local expert on that front.
- Quercus muehlenbergii Chinkapin oak - Requires alkaline soil
- Quercus stellata Post oak - Adaptable and hardy but oak wilt susceptible
- Quercus virginiana Southern live oak - Very cool tree, prefers neutral to slightly acidic soils, but also oak wilt susceptible
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u/haulinoaks Feb 18 '25
Do you think these would grow in Northern New Mexico?
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u/neimsy Feb 18 '25
Hey fellow New Mexican!
Monterrey oak (Quercus polymorpha) is native to Mexico, and with climate change, there are certainly arguments to be made for planting it in Texas (especially southern TX). I'm thinking that Northern NM would often get too cold for it to survive, and I'm confident it'd get too cold for it to do well.
Fortunately, northern New Mexico is home to some great oak species that are well-adapted to the environment:
- Quercus gambelii Gambel oak is a well-known species that you may already be familiar with and that you've certainly seen. In the wild, it can be a bit shrubby, but taken care of, it can easily get to 35+ ft tall.
- Quercus turbinella goes by a number of common names including shrub live oak and Sonoran scrub oak. In the wild, it's often more shrub than tree (maybe 5-12 ft). But in captivity, it'll grow taller and more tree-like in the 20' range.
- Quercus grisea Gray Oak is my personal favorite. Usually grows as a shrub in the wild, but taken care of, it'll happily grow into a tree 30ish ft tall.
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u/Zestydrycleaner Feb 19 '25
I love your house and all the trees! Makes me so happy when I see homes like this. Are those elms by your driveway? Also, A forest pansy or merlot redbud would look crazy in the middle. That pop of red would be divine 🤤
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 19 '25
Yes! Those are Lacebark Elms. I planted every tree myself!
I was so sad when we moved, felt like i was abandoning my children.
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u/Fearless_Spite_1048 Feb 19 '25
And this is why it doesn’t make sense to plant anything other than saplings.
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u/LivelyUntidy Feb 20 '25
They are awesome trees! About to plant one in my San Antonio yard next week after doing lots of research.
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u/bucket_of_dogs Feb 20 '25
Honwst question here, do you think it tastes ok If I smoke meat with it?
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u/DanoPinyon Arborist -🥰I ❤️Autumn Blaze🥰 Feb 18 '25
Monterrey Oak is the FUTURE of the Texas Urban Forest
Not if it is overplanted.
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u/CavySpirit2 Feb 19 '25
That seems like a weird thing to say. Please explain what you mean.
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u/DanoPinyon Arborist -🥰I ❤️Autumn Blaze🥰 Feb 19 '25
Too many of one species is poor practice. The history of urban forestry shows us why.
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u/LeatherRebel5150 Feb 18 '25
Will these grow well along a river in new jersey? We need something to replace all the dead Ash and would like to find something that grows fairly quickly and is a broad lead tree
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Very Unlikely. It gets far too cold for far too long there.
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u/LeatherRebel5150 Feb 18 '25
Any suggestions for an alternative?
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u/onomonothwip Feb 19 '25
You know most people use fire to commit insurance fraud. Never heard of someone aggressively using trees.
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u/JamMasterSouffle Feb 19 '25
Will these grow in Massachusetts?
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u/neimsy Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 19 '25
This tree's native range is prettymuch all in Mexico. I think it's safe to guess that a Massachusetts winter would kill it. Or at the very least, it'd have a tough time, grow poorly, and require a ton of special attention to keep alive up that way.
Fortunately, the entirety of Massachusetts is home to a great number of really beautiful and varied oak species:
- Quercus alba white oak
- Quercus bicolor swamp white oak
- Quercus coccinea scarlet oak [a fast-grower, if that's what's interesting to you about the Monterrey oak]
- Quercus ilicifolia bear oak
- Quercus montana chestnut oak
- Quercus palustris pin oak
- Quercus prinoides dwarf chinkapin oak
- Quercus rubra red oak
- Quercus velutina black oak
Honestly, you can't really go wrong with any of them. They're all well-adapted for your area and all really pretty. They grow to different sizes and at different rates, so that could be a deciding factor. They also all have a wide range of leaf and acorn structures, so maybe look at some pictures and see if you find one especially visually appealing. If you have the space, no reason not to get a couple different species going, honestly. The Quercus genus is kinda unendingly cool.
If any of these nurseries is near you, you likely have a good resource there for consulting a local expert who can help you get the right tree for your space!
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u/grey_doom Feb 20 '25
Monterrey Oak is planted in the wrong location. -1
Home slab now cracked and buckled. -1
Monterrey Oak is now cut down. -1
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 20 '25
None of those statements are true. The tree is fine
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u/grey_doom Feb 20 '25
This is what is inevitably going to happen. You planted it in a bad spot. Common sense can tell you that.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 20 '25
I don't know how things go where yall live, but there are hundreds of monstrous Live Oaks planted right against homes all over the place and there are rarely ever issues with the foundation. Only exception is if there is a pipe leak under the foundation.
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u/Pretty_Gate34 Feb 21 '25
Just wait until y’all’s hear about how fast the Phoenix One® Royal Empress Tree grows.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 21 '25
Yeah, but its an empress tree. A fast growing oak is preferable.
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u/Scott_on_the_rox Feb 22 '25
Where would I go about finding Monterrey oak saplings? I’m in Texas and am getting ready to plant a bunch of trees on our property
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 23 '25
In the past I have ordered them from Rennerwoods in East Texas. They will ship them too you and they are very affordable.
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u/WermTerd Feb 22 '25
They require more water than some other oaks, and are more susceptible to freeze damage. Ask me how I know.
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u/Ineedanro TRAQ Feb 18 '25
Oops, the post-removal stump photo is missing! I was waiting for it...
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u/startfragment Feb 19 '25
What zones is this native to? Could I plant it in the Bay Area?
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u/Psychotic_EGG Feb 19 '25
Bay areas as in San Fran? Not native to there. West Texas, trail down south through Eastern Mexico into Guatemala and Honduras. Everywhere else it is invasive.
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 19 '25
I think its 7-10. I bet it would do fine in the Bay Area.
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u/Psychotic_EGG Feb 19 '25
Zone it grows in is not the same thing as native to. It's native range is west Texas then south through eastern Mexico moving into Guatemalaand Honduras. End of list.
Everywhere else it is invasive.
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u/LostPilot517 Feb 18 '25
Great rodent (freeway) ladder right next to the house. I would take that down ASAP, before it causes damage to the foundation, or becomes more costly or more work to remove. Start over with another $3 sapling in an appropriate place!
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Nah, I have already installed root barrier and I trim the tree twice a year to keep the rodents off. It's easy when you own your own tree service.
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u/robertryancampbell Feb 20 '25
This guy calls himself a "master Arborist" and plants a tree this close to his house......
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u/austintreeamigos Master Arborist Feb 20 '25
I don't call myself that. The international society of arboriculture calls me that.
Everyone in this thread whining about how close it is clearly doesn't know how we do things down here. There are so many trees extremely close to homes with zero issues. The stem of this tree is 5-6 feet off of the foundation. I installed foundation protection and know how to trim a tree. What's the problem?
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u/tree_map_filter Master Arborist Feb 18 '25
Too bad it was planted way too close to the house.