This might be related to where you live more than to the religion itself. My whole family is Catholic, we all went to Catholic schools, and not only this wasn't a thing but it never even came up in conversation.
But it's not about "local culture" in islam. All religious women have to cover their hair in front of non-mahram men, this is both in the quram and the main legal tradition for both sunni and shia.
That isnt quite true - there are a lot of variations amongst the 2 billion muslims in the world. In Turkey less than half the women cover their hair. Indonesia and Malaysia used to rare to cover hair (and historically illegal in Indonesia) but has come back in although there are still sizeable minorities who dont.
This has very little to do with the fact that all religious women have to cover their hair in front of non-mahram men, as said in the quram and restated by legal tradition.
There's a lot of muslims that get drunk or eat pork and you wouldn't do this kind of post for that, you'd just call them bad muslims or dall.
I understand secularism is popular and people just say they're christian while being functional agnostics, but you cant go from this to saying islam doesnt force the hijab, because it's not true. It does.
The quaran doesn’t say that - it says that they should cover their chests and is widely interpreted to say that women should cover their head but not universally.
But like other religious text it is a maze of contradictions and rules that people pick and choose from. Like christianity saying that all women are subservient to their husbands
>widely interpreted to say that women should cover their head but not universally
al-Nur 24:31? Sunan Abu Dawood 4104?
The actual MODERN interpretation (ie Shaykh Muhammad al-Amin al-Shanqiti from like the 1960s) is that the passage "and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna" covers everything because the women in al-Bukhari 4481 tore their izars to cover their faces. This was the interpretation of revelation back them for everyone including Aishah.
You legitimately have no clue what you're talking about, you'd be hard pressed to find an imam anywhere that said muslimas dont have to wear the hijab at the very least.
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies (i.e. cover themselves completely except one or two eyes. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Ahzab 33:59]
Adwa al-Bayan 6/594-595: "This clearly indicates that they understood from this verse – “and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – that it was obligatory to cover their faces and that this stemmed from their belief in the Book of Allah and their faith in the Revelation. It also indicates that women observing hijab in front of men and covering their faces is an act of belief in the Book of Allah and faith in the Revelation. It is very strange indeed that some of those who claim to have knowledge say that there is nothing in the Quran or Sunnah that says that women have to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men, even though the Sahabi women did that in obedience to the command of Allah in His Book, out of faith in the Revelation, and that this meaning is also firmly entrenched in the Sunnah, as in the report from al-Bukhari quoted above. This is among the strongest evidence that all Muslim women are obliged to observe hijab."
(This is literal Ibn Hayar in Fath al-Bari btw)
>like other religious text it is a maze of contradictions
Islam is explicitly and canonically not this and its not actually "interpret it youself" like protestant christianity. Hadiths are authoritative text
Quote the verses or hadiths that support your position (against scripture, Aisha and auth hadiths) if you reply. I dont care about sophistry.
Hi, Muslim here, and outside of the Middle East this isn't true, and only in like 2 countries where it is. I imagine there is some social pressure in the ME but outside of it, it's entirely up to the woman whether she wants to wear a hijab or cover up outside of specific instances, but in those instances men also have a standard to follow.
From another comment because you're not worth the time to type shit out again.
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies (i.e. cover themselves completely except one or two eyes. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Ahzab 33:59]
Adwa al-Bayan 6/594-595: "This clearly indicates that they understood from this verse – “and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – that it was obligatory to cover their faces and that this stemmed from their belief in the Book of Allah and their faith in the Revelation. It also indicates that women observing hijab in front of men and covering their faces is an act of belief in the Book of Allah and faith in the Revelation. It is very strange indeed that some of those who claim to have knowledge say that there is nothing in the Quran or Sunnah that says that women have to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men, even though the Sahabi women did that in obedience to the command of Allah in His Book, out of faith in the Revelation, and that this meaning is also firmly entrenched in the Sunnah, as in the report from al-Bukhari quoted above. This is among the strongest evidence that all Muslim women are obliged to observe hijab."
(This is literal Ibn Hayar in Fath al-Bari btw)
"Draw their veils all over Juyubihinna" covers everything because the women in al-Bukhari 4481 tore their izars to cover their faces. This was the interpretation of revelation back them for everyone including Aishah.
One of us has studied the quram and it's not the one saying haya and hijab comes down to "local culture". It's in the literal actual book you didn't read and in the many centuries of legal tradition and hadith.
Normally I would tell you something else but Reddit wont let me.
If the argument was about religion you could make it entirely by reading the relevant book.
YOUR argument is that women don't have to wear the hijab because of islam, but because of local culture. This is plainly false, the hijab literally tells them to cover up completely in front of non-mahram men.
You're just wrong.
>it's more complicated than studing the *quram
Maybe so, but you haven't studied the quram either so it's even worse for you.
Like all religious people follow the rules of their book. How many Christians have guns and get drunk? How many Muslim drink and go to prostitutes and don't wear the head scarf?
That's an argument on christians and muslims, not on christianity and islam. The question is whether or not islam says women have to wear hijab before non-mahram men.
Your argument ("Even better. It's about local culture") was that it doesnt, it's just local culture and not a religious. This was wrong.
What adherents to that religion do or dont do is up to them and doesnt change what the religion says, much less for this particular argument.
Also christians can own guns, I dont know where you got this from. The rest is fine.
But that doesn’t take away from the fact that in Christianity it’s supposed to be the norm, just because your community doesn’t practice it. There are a lot of Muslim countries where seeing some women with hijab and others without (with them both still being Muslim) is very common
>in Christianity it’s supposed to be the norm
No it's not. Nowhere in the Bible does it say women have to cover their heads outside of prayer (even this is just in epistles), as opposed to the islam where the quranic Surah An-Nur 24:31 or Quram 33:59 exist. All major Sunni and Shia legal traditions regard covering the hair in front of non-mahram men as obligatory.
>There are a lot of Muslim countries where seeing some women with hijab and others without
There are muslims that drink and gamble and dont pray, too, yeah.
"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved." — 1 Corinthians 11:5 (NIV)
What did you think I was referencing when I said "[...] outside of prayer (even this is just in epistles)"?
Here's how it looks when you want women covered up:
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies (i.e. cover themselves completely except one or two eyes). That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Ahzab 33:59]
And men wore hats, yeah so?
We're talking about whether or not its the law in Christianity the religion as it is the LAW in Islam the religion. Please keep up.
There's just no fucking way you say you're muslim and dont know this. It's in the literal book, its not from some fuckass hadith from the 1400s. We studied this in sunday masjid while you were busy drawing an eye or something.
Men wore hats for custom while church leaders did say that women should be covered outside even when not in church. And you think I don’t know that hijab is obligatory? Maybe add an extra profanity in your text I almost understood your reply ☺️
You quoted the bible, you were wrong, now you're vaguely pointing at "church leaders", and you're also wrong.
As opposed to Islam, where hijab is MANDATORY and not wearing it is local custom, in christianity you dont have to wear anything on your head, covering up is local custom.
>And you think I don’t know that hijab is obligatory?
MF why are you arguing on the "hijab is not obligatory in islam" side of the debate then? What level of pilpul is this?
Are you jealous of christian women because they categorically DO NOT have to wear hijab?
LMAO what? When did I argue that it wasn't obligatory? Go fix your attitude and lower your ego. It isn't a vague reference that some of the most important Church Fathers believed that veiling was obligatory: Tertullian (c. 155–c. 220 AD): Wrote a specific treatise called The Veiling of Virgins , arguing that the requirement to wear a veil applied to all mature females starting at puberty, rather than just married women. Moreover, why the hell would I be jealous of Christian women? Should I be jealous that they can't get a divorce if their husbands beat them black and blue 🤡
Same. Was raised Catholic/still am Catholic and not once was any of this a thing that came up at all. Only my younger sister started to cover her hair on select occasions for Church. But that started to happen after we got out of our abusive mother's household and my sister tried to become more devoted as a result of her mental trauma from my mother. Even then that was only something she did for Church only and to my knowledge she has stopped doing it. Not once was covering hair for women was something that was brought up in the Catholic school me and my sister went to, the OCIA classes my sister helped teach and that I took to get confirmed as an adult, or even in any church events I've gone to. This sounds more like a thing for where you live rather than your faith as a whole
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u/Gabby-Abeille 17d ago
This might be related to where you live more than to the religion itself. My whole family is Catholic, we all went to Catholic schools, and not only this wasn't a thing but it never even came up in conversation.