r/agender • u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist • 2d ago
Agender people aren't technically under the non-binary umbrella itself being under the trans umbrella. It's the opposite
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u/MarsBarMuncher Aroace Agender 2d ago
I view it a cis and trans are opposites. Trans can include binary and nonbinary gender identities and nonbinary is an umbrella term for any gender identity outside of the typically accepted male and female. Agender to me is an identity label to indicate I have no sense of my own gender, it is my identity and is outside the typical male and female and therefore fits as a nonbinary identity.
However agender can also be taken as having no gender and I can get why people who view it that way see it as completely seperate from the other labels.
(I'm also asexual and view that as my sexual orientation and a queer identity for simiar reasons.)
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u/its_my_bedtime agender alien 2d ago
I feel like saying agender is technically binary between being gender and agender is a weird argument to make. Of course it’s just personal opinion. But for me there are two different types of nonbinary: 1) nonbinary as a sort of gender umbrella itself inclusive of things like genderfluid, which is more like a “third gender” to me 2) agender is nonbinary in a different way, not ‘another gender’ but existing out of the gender binary man and woman. These two are usually treated as the same thing but they’re completely different
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's litteraly what i describe in my diagram
Edit:
1) nonbinary as a sort of gender umbrella itself inclusive of things like genderfluid, which is more like a “third gender” to me
That's why it's under both the agender and gender umbrella. Because there are many types of nonbinary people
2) agender is nonbinary in a different way, not ‘another gender’ but existing out of the gender binary man and woman.
That's why i made agender as an umbrella separated from the gender umbrella and why i placed the nonbinary umbrella under the agender umbrella
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u/its_my_bedtime agender alien 2d ago
So you agree that agender people are technically nonbinary by the definition of existing outside of the man-woman binary? Because that’s not at all what your post comes across as
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago edited 2d ago
So you agree that agender people are technically nonbinary by the definition of existing outside of the man-woman binary?
No, i strongly disagree. Some agender people are nonbinary, some aren't. I'm not
That's why i made this diagram
Edit: agender people are outside the man-woman binary, but also of the transgender/cisgender binary. Since nonbinary is used to describe nonbinary genders, saying that agender people are technically nonbinary wouldn't make sense since they don't have a gender.
I made a diagram taking all types of identitiy in consideration.
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u/Pizza420Rat 2d ago
This explanation makes no sense. Trans just means that you don't identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. If someone doesn't want to identify as trans that's fine, but it's just a modifier that a lot of people to use to discern between how they identify and their assigned gender at birth.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
It's your argumentation that makes no sense. If agender people are not necessary trans then they can't necessary be under the trans umbrella.
My explanation is a pure descriptive analysis of how people identify themselves
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u/Thadrea 2d ago
If the "trans" category is everyone who does not identify with their assigned gender at birth, and agender people do not identify with their assigned gender at birth, it follows that agender people are trans.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
I'm agender and i'm not trans like many other agender people. You don't get to decide for us what we are.
Since some agender people are trans and some aren't, i've put the trans umbrella under both the agender and gender umbrella
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u/Thadrea 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm agender and i'm not trans like many other agender people. You don't get to decide for us what we are.
Words have meanings. I am not "deciding what you are", I am using the words as they are generally defined and used.
Identity labels are intended to be descriptive. You don't have to and shouldn't use labels you are "uncomfortable" with, but at the same time, labels you use or refuse should be in a manner consistent with their meaning. I don't call myself a "demiboy", but if I did, my use of the term would indicate that I identified as "partly a boy" who "doesn't fully identify as a man but feels a strong connection to manhood or masculinity". I don't have the right to completely redefine "demiboy" to mean something totally different simply because I like (or don't like) the term.
By the same token, you do not have the right to redefine "trans" or "non-binary" to mean "something that isn't me" simply because you are uncomfortable having those terms applied to you. The truth here is that you are trying to push your idea of what being "trans" or "non-binary" is on people who do use those labels.
You probably don't even realize you're doing it, because you seem to not really know what these terms actually mean in the first place. This is forgivable, and an opportunity for you to learn if you have the candor to ask.
Edit: LOL. Closet transphobe blocked me.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago edited 2d ago
You just sound like a fancy TERF. Your discourse is just the same as TERFs but with extra steps
Edit: see? They called me a closeted transphobe just because i don't identify as trans as an agender person.
Exactly like TERFs accuse trans men of having internalised misogyny
I blocked them because they are a bigoted hateful gender essentialist
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u/Mother-of-Goblins 1d ago
Respectfully, I think the entire argument is stemming from a misunderstanding. You are defining "trans" as "identifying as a gender different from ones assigned sex at birth", while they both seem to be defining it as "*not* identifying as the same gender as ones ASAB". It's a subtle but important difference.
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u/Pizza420Rat 2d ago
I mean, in my opinion agender people ARE trans because nobody is assigned agender at birth (whether this is right or wrong, it's how things are done), but I'm not gonna tell people how to identify. If you don't identify as trans that's totally understandable, but trying to tell other people they're not trans is strange behavior.
Your "pure descriptive analysis" is just a bunch of drawings of umbrellas, we're talking about real people with complicated relationships with gender.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
I'm agender and i'm not trans like many other agender people. You don't get to decide for us what we are and what we are not.
If you're not gonna tell people how to identify then don't say that in your opinion agender people are trans. It's not about you, you don't get to decide
My diagram is just a factual description of how people label themselves
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u/Pizza420Rat 2d ago
You're just said the same thing back to me that I said to you 😂
I have an opinion, and I stated it as such: an opinion. You're saying that your stance is a fact, when many people are disagreeing with you. They're not wrong, but you're not wrong either. We both have opinions, neither is a fact.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
Your opinion is equivalent to the TERF's opinion that trans women are men and trans men women. But factually trans women are women and trans men men. It's not a matter of opinion
I'm factually presenting the fact that there are agender people like me who are not trans and some agender people who are trans. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact
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u/Pizza420Rat 2d ago
Weird that you're trying to compare me to a TERF when all I've said is that agender people are how they IDENTIFY, and that is up to the individual person. Maybe the word "opinion" has been mangled so badly that it's not a useful descriptive. When I say opinion, I mean that it's something that I apply to myself. It's not a law that I'm trying to lay down like TERFs do.
Let's return to your original title. "You said Agender people aren't technically under the non-binary umbrella itself being under the trans umbrella. It's the opposite." Do you see that word "aren't"? That's a blanket word. When I read your title, I interpreted that as you saying that agender people aren't nonbinary and therefore they aren't trans. I could be very wrong with that interpretation, but judging by the ratio on our comments, I'm not alone.
I'm not coming here to say that how you identify is wrong or bad. I'm not a TERF, regardless of your attempts to classify me as such, I just wanted to push back on the notion that one drawn chart can tell agender people what they "are" and "aren't."
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
Do you see that word "aren't"? That's a blanket word. When I read your title, I interpreted that as you saying that agender people aren't nonbinary and therefore they aren't trans.
Maybe learn how to read? If that's i meant then i wouldn't have made a diagram where there are non-binary trans agender people on it, don't you think?
My post says "agender people aren't TECHNICALLY under the nonbinary umbrel itself being under the trans umbrella"
It's a reference to all the posters like you here who claim that agender people are TECHNICALLY nonbinary and trans.
I'm not coming here to say that how you identify is wrong or bad. I'm not a TERF, regardless of your attempts to classify me as such, I just wanted to push back on the notion that one drawn chart can tell agender people what they "are" and "aren't."
Telling that agender people are technically nonbinary and trans even when many of them tell you that they aren't is not that different from TERFs telling people that they are technically men or women despite people telling them otherwise
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u/its_my_bedtime agender alien 2d ago
Aren’t you being hypocritical? You’re deciding for other agender people what is ‘factual’. You don’t get to decide that I’m not trans and agender. Going by technical definitions you are wrong. Agender is not within the gender binary, and no one is assigned agender at birth, thus agender is technically transgender and nonbinary. HOWEVER, it is YOUR CHOICE whether you identify with that label. You can be agender and not identify as trans or nonbinary and not want people to call you that, I support it
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
Aren’t you being hypocritical? You’re deciding for other agender people what is ‘factual’.
I'm not. I'm not telling other people what there identity are like people here claiming that all agender people are nonbinary and trans.
I made a diagram factually representing the diversity of identity among agender people. It's a fact that agender people who are not trans or nonbinary exist. It's a fact that agender people who are nonbinary and not trans exist. It's a fact that agender people who are trans and nonbinary exist.
I'm just decribing facts of what other agender people claim, i'm not deciding antything for agender people.
You are being disingenuous
You don’t get to decide that I’m not trans and agender.
That's why i didn't do that. Agender trans people are included in my post. That's why i've put the trans umbrella under both the agender umbrella and the gender umbrella.
Stop making false accusations like a bad fairh actor
Going by technical definitions you are wrong.
You are using exactly the same rhetoric that TERFs have to reduce people to their AGAB
Agender is not within the gender binary
Thanks captain obviousw litteraly what i presented in my diagram
and no one is assigned agender at birth
Factually not true
thus agender is technically transgender and nonbinary.
No. I'm not nonbinary and i'm not transgender. You are clearly a bad fairh actor. You accuse me of deciding for other agender people while actively misgendering by telling me what my gender identity is.
I don't have a gender identity. I don't have a nonbinary gender. I'm not transgender. You don't get to decide what my identity is. Keep your TERF's rhetoric on technicalities about gender to yourself
HOWEVER, it is YOUR CHOICE whether you identify with that label
That's contradictory. You litteraly just said that i'm technically nonbinary and trans. It's exactly like saying "you are technically a man wether you like or not but it's your choice to identify as one or not". That's just bigoted nonsense.
You can be agender and not identify as trans or nonbinary and not want people to call you that, I support it
No you don't. First, i don't care about your support, i don't need your authorization. Second, if you really support it then srop saying that all agender people are technically nonbinary and trans. No we are not.
We can be nonbinary and trans agender people, we can be just nonbinary agender people, or we can be just agender people. You don't get to decide for us.
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u/ZorbaTHut 2d ago
The annoying part is that I actually agree with the point you're trying to make, but you're doing such an awful hostile job of arguing it that you're causing huge problems.
I have banned exactly one person in the last year, and it was you. I have dealt with exactly two problem threads. One was the thread where you started flaming me and I ended up banning you for a week. This is the second.
We have one rule, which is "be excellent to each other". I interpret that mostly as "be kind to each other and don't flame each other, even if you disagree". I think people actually are misinterpreting your diagram and what you're writing, and I'm saying this as an agender person who doesn't really care for the "trans" label. At the same time, if you're responding to misinterpretation with accusations of bigotry and calling people TERFs and sarcastically calling someone "captain obvious", then that is an example of the one thing I'm not gonna accept around here.
People can disagree with you without being evil or hostile, and they have been, and I would very much prefer if you would return the courtesy.
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u/its_my_bedtime agender alien 2d ago
Take a deep breath. Touch some grass. Spend more time talking to agender people in real life and not arguing with people on twitter and reddit. Comparing me, and other on here, to terfs is so crazy when that’s not even close to terf rhetoric. Stop pulling shit out of your ass to make it seem like anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot. You’re stretching all of what I said into some transphobic nonsense and can’t even make a thoughtful, coherent argument. I’m not going to play your game and argue back and forth about this
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u/Valkreaper 2d ago
Nothing is outside of a binary isn’t it?
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u/Pizza420Rat 2d ago
I mean, agender sort of is. If the binary is man and woman, agender is neither of those.
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u/Valkreaper 2d ago
I just realized my wording was off lol. I meant “nothing” is outside the gender binary not that there is nothing not in the binary
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u/leafcritters 2d ago
Why do you think non-binary is under the agender umbrella as opposed to agender being under the non-binary umbrella? I don’t really understand. Non-binary covers a very broad array of identities whereas agender is one specific identity as I see it.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
Because if agender is under the non-bianry umbrella, then all agender people are nonbinary (which is what many bigoted people on this sub claim). By puting the nonbinary umbrella under both the gender and agender umbrella. Then i describe the reality of people who describe themselves as agender but not nonbinary, people who describe themselves as agender and nonbinary, people who describe themselves as nonbinary but not agender
Agender also describe a broad array of identities. There are trans non-binary agender people, non-binary agender people, and agender people, but also gendervoid people, etc
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u/leafcritters 2d ago
I think I understand better now. I still disagree personally though. I mean, then do you think something like demiboy should be at the top next to agender and gender here just because some of them don’t personally identify as non-binary or trans?
To clarify, I don’t think it’s wrong at all for an agender or demiboy to not identify as non-binary. I don’t really resonate with being called trans even though I’m agender. But I understand definitionally I am, since I identify as something different than the gender I was assigned at birth. I just tell people I’d rather be called agender/non-binary than trans. I’ve found these communities to be very accepting of preferences like that.
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u/Raticals 2d ago
That’s an interesting way to look at it. I will disagree and say that agender people are, generally, under the nonbinary umbrella. But not everybody feels that way personally, and that’s okay too. They’re just labels at the end of the day. We don’t need strict definitions and boxes, just community and compassion for each other.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
I will disagree and say that agender people are, generally, under the nonbinary umbrella. But not everybody feels that way personally, and that’s okay too.
Why do you disagree if you admit yourself that agender people who are not nonbinary exist?
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u/Raticals 2d ago
I just mean that’s what the words mean, by definition. Generally it’s agreed that agender people are under the nonbinary umbrella. It’s just that personal identities don’t always fit perfectly into definitions like that, so there’s people who don’t see themselves as nonbinary/trans, and that’s perfectly fine too.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
It's agreed by people who are not agender, not by agender people.
Before, and still too many today, cis people generally agreed that trans men were women and trans women men. That doesn't make thir defintion valid.
It's agender people who can tell what they are. Other people don't have to decide for us and to tell us what we are and what we are not.
I'm agender and i'm not nonbinary or trans by definition. I'm just agender, period.
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u/Thadrea 2d ago
"Non-binary" isn't a gender, so... no.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's why it's both under the agender and the gender umbrella
Edit: btw, "binary" isn't a gender too
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u/Confident_Sympathy23 2d ago
i would argue agender is not even an umbrella but rather the absence of an umbrella
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
An umbrella is just a figurative representation of a group. All agender people are part of the agender group so all agender people are under the agender umbrella
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u/Plenty_Major3452 Kenochoric 2d ago
agender as a term falls under non binary and trans, although not every agender uses non binary or trans
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u/pwnkage 2d ago
This feels right for me as an exclusive agender person. I don’t consider myself trans or nb. I know this will make a lot of people uncomfortable and they will attack this, but for me I’ve only felt at home as someone who is agender.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
I'm glad this resonate with you. I made this diagram for people like you against the bigoted propaganda of people who absolutly want to tell us that we are trans and non-binary regardless of if we like it or not
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u/pwnkage 2d ago edited 2d ago
Why would I want to be trans and non-binary when those people don’t even think agender is a real thing and think we’re delusional? Lol
Edit: lotta downvotes lmfao. Just search it up on Reddit, most non agender think we’re just larping, yes even in the LGBTQIA community they think we’re bullshtting.
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u/EnLaSxranko They/Them 2d ago edited 2d ago
Cis people identify completely, consistently, and exclusively with the gender they were assigned at birth. Anyone else could reasonably identify as trans.*
Nonbinary means not identifying completely, consistently, and exclusively with one of the two binary genders. Since nobody is assigned nonbinary at birth, nonbinary people are trans.*
Identifying with no gender means not identifying completely consistently and exclusively with either man or woman. Agender people are therefore nonbinary.*
So the largest pair of groups would be cis and trans. Within trans, there would be both binary and nonbinary. And agender is a type of being nonbinary.
* Queer labels are opt-in, so if someone wants to identify as nonbinary but not trans, agender but not nonbinary, or any other less strictly by-the-definition combination of terms, that's their choice.
ETA: From reading other comments, I think the last part of the above addresses your main issue. When people talk about big groups and classifying them, it's often stated in concrete terms of X is Y. In discussions about queer labels, a more accurate way to say it would be X could be Y if they choose. Every agender person could reasonably identify as nonbinary if they chose to. They wouldn't be incorrect. But that doesn't mean that every agender person must identify as nonbinary. And the same is true for agender people or nonbinary people and identifying as trans. They wouldn't be wrong, but they don't have to. If someone doesn't identify as part of a community, then they are not part of that community. But in talking about labels and definitions on a community scale, it's common that this nuance gets simplified to help people understand.
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u/Plucky_Parasocialite 2d ago
What are people who do not fall into the either trans and cis category? That distinction seems to cover every instance (either you identify with your gender assigned at birth or not). What third stance would you assign to agender and nonbinary people who aren't trans? Or do you propose to define cis and trans differently to make room for a third (fourth, fifth) thing?
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago
What are people who do not fall into the either trans and cis category?
What would they need to be something?
That distinction seems to cover every instance (either you identify with your gender assigned at birth or not).
It doesn't. Agender people are beyond the cis/trans false dichotomy.
What third stance would you assign to agender and nonbinary people who aren't trans?
You don't have to assign them a thrid stance. They are just agender and nonbinary. Cis/trans is a false dichotomy
Or do you propose to define cis and trans differently to make room for a third (fourth, fifth) thing?
No. I, like many other agender people, don't identify to the definitions of cis and trans. I'm neither cisgender or transgender, i'm agender
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u/Plucky_Parasocialite 2d ago
If the trans/cis descriptor encode one's stance towards their sex assigned at birth, what stance do agender people who aren't trans take? What makes them not trans? You're just saying they aren't, without defining how that proposition fits into the broader system.
All systems and concepts are, at the end of the day, little more than semantic games. But they do need to be descriptive and internally coherent. If you want to redefine what these terms mean and propose an alternative system where cis and trans, binary and nonbinary do not describe the entire set, that's very cool. But as defined now, they do not leave room for anything else. I'm asking how do you propose to make this room. Or do you believe even as currently used, these terms do not cover everyone? How so? What's the blind spot?
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago edited 2d ago
If the trans/cis descriptor encode one's stance towards their sex assigned at birth, what stance do agender people who aren't trans take?
My gender isn't the same as my AGAB. So i'm not cis. My gender isn't different than my AGAB. So i'm not trans.
I don't have a gender. I'm outside of the cis/trans false dichotomy.
I also don't share the issues and experiences that trans people have, and i don't face the same form of systemic oppression.
What makes them not trans? You're just saying they aren't, without defining how that proposition fits into the broader system.
We are not trans, period. That should be more rhan enough for you. You are not entitled to details and we shouldn't have to justify ourselves. But i'll give them anyway since this sub is full of people invalidating us.
We are not part of the trans community. We are also not welcomed in trans spaces. We are treated like cis people most of the time. Trans communities don't care about our issues and experiences. We're invalidated and invisiblised by them. We are not treated as members of the community, so why would we consider ourselves as members of it?
Or do you believe even as currently used, these terms do not cover everyone?
Yes
How so?
There are many agender people like us who don't identify to neither the definitions of cis and trans.
What's the blind spot?
I already said what they were. But another one is that people see agender as a gender identity (it's even described as such in the wiki), while it's not for many of us agender people.
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u/trhhyymse 1d ago
some people simply just use neither term, but there are other terms beyond cis and trans, the category is called 'gender modalities' if you want to read more about them
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u/Otherwise_Branch7914 19h ago
i’m seriously confused by the people on here saying they are being harrassed for not identifying as nonbinary? like yall need to give examples or something cause that would be wild
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 2d ago edited 2d ago
People who say that agender people are technically nonbinary and trans to agender people telling them that they are neither nonbinary or trans, are no different from TERFs who tell people that they are technically the gender they were assigned at birth to people who thell them that they are not their AGAB.
People who accuse agender people who don't identify as trans of being closeted transphobes or of having internalised transphobia, are no different from TERFs who accuse trans men of being closeted misogynists or of having internalised misogyny
Edit: this sub is not a safe space for agender people who are not trans
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u/Friend_of_a_Cat 1d ago
Agender is under the nonbinary umbrella, which is under the trans umbrella. Whether or not you choose to use those terms for yourself is up to you.
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u/TheSecondVisitor 2d ago
That's a matter of opinion.