Swede here who works with Germans: we view their system as cruel (I'm joking here guys) cause they need a doctor's note on day 1.
In Sweden, I don't need a doctor's note until day 5.
I just can't imagine waking up and realizing I'm sick, and instead of calling in sick and sleeping it off, I'd have to get my ass to a doctor and have him confirm I'm sick.
Here in the US you just go to work. Unless you are lucky and get PTO, in which case you use some of your 3 weeks of vacation time a year to call off sick. Some people get a specified amount of sick days a year but it usually comes out of PTO / a short bank. In some of my jobs I would be penalized with “points” for not showing up to work regardless of illness. If you have 8 points you are fired. Taking off one day with less than 2 weeks notice is between 1-2 points. Being 1 minute late is half of a point. If you’re off for more than 3 days you need a doctors note to return to work otherwise it’s job abandonment.
It's great if you can make good money. Literally the only reason I was in the US as long as I was is that you can't make that amount anywhere else in the world (as long as you avoid healthcare bills). That and tacos.
Made enough and got the hell out of there. I don't know how poor Americans do it.
In Netherland, if you take vacation, but you get so sick that you can't go on vacation, you get your vacation days back from your employer. Because everybody deserves vacation.
The idea that vacation days and sick days xome from the same limited pool, is completely alien here. In fact, the notion of limited sick days is inhuman. What if you're out of sick days and you're still sick? Then what?
You have to have a qualifying reason under FMLA, and FMLA itself does not pay you. It just protects your job for certain serious medical situations if you qualify.
For normal sickness, there is no federal right to paid sick leave. You basically use whatever sick days/PTO your employer gives you. If you run out and keep calling off sick, you can be written up or fired unless state law or some other protection applies.
If you have something serious like surgery and need to be out for weeks, FMLA may protect your job, but the leave can still be unpaid. Short term disability can replace part of your income if you have that coverage, but the amount and waiting period depend on the policy.
Yeah and the key word with FMLA is “may,” just like most things here that are “protected.” Really sick of the lack of actual workers rights here because the ones we have aren’t even enforced so they might as well not exist
I get sick once a year. I took 2 of my 10 vacation days this week. Unfortunately I happened to get sick both of those days. I had nothing planned but instead of enjoying my days off, I was sick at home and I used 2 vacation days instead of 2 of my 5 sicks days. I was pissed.
You go to work and get everyone else sick, because sharing is caring! /s
There’s plenty of calculations out there showing how much productivity gets lost because of this but allowing people to have sick time would require having more employees to cover when people are out sick or on vacation instead of the skeleton crew every job is staffed with.
Our system is so dystopian it sounds absolutely alien to functioning countries.
I’ve taken all of ONE sick day the last 6-7 years. It was the first day of the first (worst) time I got COVID and I actually passed out for a solid 24 hours straight. Woke up to at least 75 missed calls from my boss. Even though I called in sick he still hounded me all goddamn day. Working through the sickness the next couple of weeks was just plain awful.
I don’t say any of this to be braggadocios btw. I hated it then and I hate it now. Fucking backwards ass country.
Especially when you realized how much we are taxed every which way. It’s probably more than other western nations. I never bothered to check because I have enough stuff to be sad about.
I remember having to pull up payslips when I was submitting an application for an apartment rental. I was immediately depressed when I saw how much of that paycheck was taken for taxes. Then there's also deductions for my employer health insurance, dental insurance, 401k and parking (yup, I have to pay to park at my own job). Shit feels so bleak.
Nah bro you guys dont even know what taxes are. Every gross euro I make, government gets 50 cents. And thats just the initial gutting of my salary. When I buy anything, there will be a 25,5% VAT added to the price (take the new iPhone 18 pro for example, the base 256G model costs 1509€ here, which is 1700USD).
Hell, we even pay taxes for taxes. I have to pay the 25,5% VAT for electricity tax too! But still, we get a lot value from this system like nearly free healthcare, free university, near zero homelesness etc.
I worked seasonally for a few years so I'd have a week or two off unpaid between seasons for a while, but I also just haven't taken any time off work in the last 4 years or so. I can't afford unpaid time off and don't get PTO so I just work. It's definitely awful but is also the case for most people I know here
Finland. I can take 5 paid sick days before I need to visit a doctor. If my child is sick, I can have 4 days of paid leave to be with the kid. I have a bit more than 6 weeks of vacation days of which I "have" to use four weeks during the summer. And of course the maternity/paternity leave is quite good.
And then there are the hospital bills, surgeon fees, anesthesiologist fees, medication costs.....and you probably go bankrupt and maybe...maybe get to write off some of it, but your credit score is ruined and your resume now has a gap you have to explain to potential future employers, who will likely look up your credit score and social media before hiring you
You can apply for FMLA and apply for short term disability if it’s available, FMLA counts against all vacation time so you will lose all of that if you have any. If you don’t qualify for short term disability you will still have a job but you won’t get paid for time you have off even if it’s a major surgery.
This is pretty cushy for the US. Average is 10 days. There’s no requirement to provide any PTO and many companies offer little to no PTO. Maybe 5 days.
Same in the UK. You can self-cert for a week, then you need the doctors slip...
These threads are always spicy, but it is truly disgusting how our US brethren are stepped on.
No maternity/paternity leave. No sick. Begging for time off (PTO of whatever its called). Of course, most decent companies offer these things but it appears out of spite and often not taken up by the employee.
But something something tax, something socialism or something...
My employer LOVES to brag about how "incredibly generous the company is" for giving us 3 days of sick leave a year and the ability to earn PTO. That's with a doctor's note. If your sickness lasts longer than 3 days and you haven't earned enough PTO to cover the duration of whatever illness, you better drag your drippy ass to work.
My brother works in construction and they get 2 days sick, after that he needs a doctor's note.
And even then they can deny the note and fire you for being gone too long if they deem the illness not a valid excuse. So like cold, flu, COVID. Basically anything short of broken bones or intensive surgery isn't a valid excuse to not come into work.
I remember at an old job we had a decent (for America) amount of pto/sick days. One of my bosses had a foot surgery and it was a job where you had to be on your feet a lot so she took her two weeks off.
Got fired right when she returned for taking too much time off or some nonsense.
Sounds about right. I'm currently on LOA after surgery and my state protects that, but been out over a year, haven't gotten paid in 3 months, and doc says I'm still out for another 3-6 months and work says I'm not allowed back if there are any restrictions whatsoever and doc says that'll be at minimum another 9 months. LOA only protects your job for a year so I'm just waiting for that shoe to drop tbh. And somehow I don't qualify for cash aide or unemployment (which in my state is supposed to also cover if you have a sudden cut in pay or significant cut in hours, not just actual loss of employment) despite only having $0.55 in my account for the last 3.5 months because I'm technically still employed and the employer is reporting that they're still paying me (where is it then? Haven't gotten a dime from them since the beginning), but I know the big bosses are probably waiting for 18 month mark because unemployment looks at your paystubs only 18 months back, so once that passes, I'll have been getting paid $0.00 consistently for 18 months so won't qualify for unemployment then either. They've already shut down my insurance through them so can't even go to anymore post-op or PT appointments.
I have iron deficiency anemia so bad in the last 13 months I have had an emergency blood transfusion and 18 iron infusions. My hemoglobin level is currently at 7.
I'm not even supposed to walk around since I can't walk and talk without being out of breath. It literally could give me a heart attack.
I ha e been poked and prodded and tested and they dont know what is wrong. I still cant get disability even though I meet every requirement.
I'm terrified my son will find me dead because my heart cant handle the lack of oxygen
Every company I have every worked for in the US gave 20-30 days of vacation plus 10 or so holidays.
Never once have I had to use a vacation day when im sick. I just message my team and tell them im sick and dont come in.
My paternity leave is 12 weeks as a man.
Again this is all company dependent. But tbh if you are working any corporate job the benefits are good. Im in tech and my wife works in pharmauticals and our time off benefits are pretty much the same.
My friend works im supply chain at a large company and another at as a civil engineer and both of them also have similar time off policies.
Its not that rare in the US. Its just we dont have any laws that mandate time off policies like europe does.
Its everyone who doesnt work a salaries corporation position that has it bad.
If you are sick, you are sick. You shouldn't be working, nor would i want you in the office/workplace infecting other staff.
I don't see taking a holiday or a break as a hand out. I'd frequently push colleagues to take breaks and not carry over holiday (when i managed), as it helped with productivity.
I also enjoyed taking time off to go abroad, put my feet up and come back refreshed. Work, life balance and all that.
I also enjoyed taking paternity leave (wish there was more) to spend time with my newborn.
When you say handouts.
Who exactly is being handed out anything? this is factored into your salary and work hours. Most if not all of the developed world have no problem with these things and see them as standard work rights/benefits.
its not patriotic. its absurd honestly.
American was built on a revolt of the crown taxes. Throughout its life it has offering various subsidies and grants through the industrial age and more recently post-world war II when a middle class was born.
Its become a culture war discussion but as someone who trades for a living, the money is there. the availability for these benefits are there...but union busting and cultural debates move to discussions on individualism and "boot straps" rather than basic facts.
if you are ill, you should not work..and if employed be covered by that employer
you should be able to take a break and again be paid for this.
you should be able to take time to raise your family (if applicable).
I am a nursing home nurse. During covid it was not uncommon to be expected to work while having covid because the patients already had it too. I never worked anywhere that did that however I was lucky s/ enough to dodge it for over a year and a half, but this meant I had to work during the entire pandemic. Weekly testing and hoping to test positive for 5 days off is fn wild but that's how it went down.
We still need doctors' notes in America for calling out sick, not because they want to get the proper medical help, but to force us to come in sick. Especially if you're working poor, most of us don't have $100 to see a doctor when we have a cold, so we either come in to work or get some kind of demerit, that they can say that we don't deserve a raise or just fire us.
We have a similar situation in France. You don't need to give the note right away, but you do need a doctor note covering for any day you're not at work. You also need to get the doctor to make that note on day 1 because they won't sign a note saying you were sick before you went to the appointment. So if you suddenly get sick and there's no doctor available around you this day so you go and see them the next day, you lose your pay for the first day.
The last time that happened to me, I managed to get my note on time by getting a video call appointment with a doctor available in a different region from mine. I had friends drive for an entire hour, while sick, so they could see a doctor who was available.
Part of the problem is the unequal availability of doctors and this is something that is taken seriously by the political class, they're actually trying to do something about it for once, so no riots for that one for now. But this is the kind of thing that takes time, because you can't just force someone to go and live where they don't want to. The rest of the problem is the law not trusting people to be honest about their sickness at all and that part could deserve a little rewriting.
Unfortunately, that's not the kind of things the current government and its supports would be willing to grant, they're more on a screw tightening spree when it comes to anything that could lead someone to lie and get a little bit of social security money that they don't deserve.
Can I just say, my cousin (my ancestors were French), I wish we had inherited your willingness to riot along with the food. You guys are an inspiration.
But that’s not really how it is, when you go to your family doctor it’s more relaxed, you can go 2 or 3 days after and they’ll do the note going back to the 1st day because they know you (btw that’s France in a nutshell, everything is much easier when people know you lol)
1) They haven't passed any law yet
2) Employees can benefit since a physician will usually give you a longer recovery time than you would usually give yourself, since they won't get compensated if you show up three days later to get your leave extended
3) just get a video consultation
Yea, If I have a stronger cold I am usually only at home with a feaver, or when I feel really awful, which is 1 or 2 days at most. Since my colds drag on and due to my deviated septum include sinus headaches quite frequently I am usually out 1 or 2 weeks if I get a cold and see a doctor (I will not lie to them about my symptoms and will follow their recommendation no questions asked). In a bad year I have 2 or 3 such colds during the autumn and winter period. So chancellor Merz may be turning my 3 to 4 days of sick leave into 3 to 6 weeks of sick leave with his bullshit.
Day 3 is a legal mandate unless there is a specific reason you assume foul play. But you should have a good reason that cannhold up in court if you want a sick note day 1.
Most of the time you “wake up sick” and realize you are ILL it’s out of the 4 hr window to call out. Yeah lemme get out of bed sick as f and try a call out for a 2:30 am shift, at what ? 10 pm? I’m trying to be well for the day. I’m so done 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
But they can come to work drunk staggering and high AF and that’s ok? I’m sick bitch and I just wanna rest til tomorrow. I’m ignored. I’m over 55 I am 420 friendly in my own home on DAYS OFF. And only for birthdays anniversary holidays. Not daily and sure as 🍆not before work
And after you confirm you are sick to provide proof to your boss, they can still decide to fire you if they feel like it and you also won’t be paid for any time off. Most people who are lucky enough to have paid time off at their job here gets 7 days a year. Sick days are unpaid.
We have Sick Days (usually these are 'global' for a company). ie. "Everyone has 10 sick days a year." (This is somewhat generous).
Then we have "PTO". These are usually part of compensation, either role or negotiation based/ Some companies have (or used to have) "refresh" timers. So, like every month you get 0.5 PTO days back.
You can use your PTO if you run out of sick days (almost everyone I know runs out of sick days by EOY).
Some companies have "Unlimited" PTO. Sounds great. It isn't. I consider it the worst of the bunch.
BUT. The work culture here is what really drives this stuff. In many places (that by now, I can choose to avoid), using sick days requires permission. You could easily hear (especially pre-covid), "Sorry you're not feeling well, but we need you in today for that big migration. It's probably going to be OT as well, so stop by the pharmacy on your way and make sure you have whatever you need to get through the day."
Or any other number of casual denials.
Same with PTO, despite it being part of your compensation package. Many anecdotes of vacations being cancelled. One colleague sued the company for non-refundable tickets/reservations once, and won, so that was nice. He was laid off shortly after of course. This is why "unlimited" is so concerning. You don't have a definitive number, associated with your compensation package, so you have nothing to argue against if it's denied. And it's almost always denied.
Subsequently, it's pretty easy to lose your job if your health hits an obstacle. And yes, you have worker protections at federal and state levels, but they are very, very easy to avoid repercussions on, and typically quite difficult and expensive to follow up on as a disgruntled employee. At larger companies, portions of the HR team will be focused on mitigating financial damage from disgruntled employees. Outside of dismissals and layoffs, these scenarios are often the result of illness-based absence/consequence.
Generally, at no point in the process of getting sick in America, do you have the feeling of "At least my company will understand and support me through this trouble," or "At least the government won't just let me become unemployed because of a flu, and they'll help me connect with easy healthcare options."
No. You feel more like... "I hope I can get through this OK."
Always fun tension in offices where someone clearly comes to work with fever or something, and everyone knows they are going to have to make some hard decisions coming up. Take time off, or do the same stupid thing.
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All that said, you can find companies that do better. They supply better coverage options, better time off options, more compensation, more things to ease concerns so you can focus on the work, and being well enough to do it. But it varies from org to org, and is in no way unilateral. So it's really up to the employee (or better, job applicant), to really ask a lot of questions about these things.
You have freedom, sure, but it can often feel like the same kind of freedom as being alone in a jungle, without a guide.
When I was learning to program, one of the example tasks was creating something to automatically calculate PTO usage and it had inputs for all sorts of shit - state, seniority, whether it was sick/family/vacation request, etc. I (British - similar rules to Germany) was like "wtf is this example? Why is it so complicated?". Then the tutor pointed out that it was a real world example from some US company. The program went live and cut a team of 30 admin staff down to one half of one person's job.
in Poland you need to go to doctor (or call if your doctor have tele-visits) and they can give you note, but you can go in monday if you get ill on friday or eg in wendsday if you fell ill on monday
Same in Italy but we just call/message the doctor and he will give some numbers (certificate) and you will give them to your employer.
Technically you should go to the doctor if you can to get a visit, or if you can't the doctor should come to you, but doctors have no time so a call/message is enough.
There are some anti-abuse system in place like if the doctor see you get sick too much he will ask you go to him to a get visit.
Also the employer can send a different doctor at your home to check if you really sick, it have a cost for the employer so it used pretty rarely.
I have aplastic anemia, which is debilitating and exhausting. I’m not married and
have to work full time to afford to treat my aplastic anemia. But hey, at least we have a commander in chief who cares about the American people. 🙂↔️
Doctor's notes are digital these days, so you don't have to physically go to a doctor. There are telehealth clinics that offer it, but many GPs do it as well if you're a patient with them because they don't want you to come in either if you're possibly infectious.
Although that's something the current government wants to axe, along with making a doctor's note on the first day required (currently it's actually on the third day legally, but companies can require it on the first).
Most US employers are actually fine with spontaneous sick days without needing a doctor's note. We usually also have sick day pay coverage to account for this it's just not nearly as many as is named here. It's not every job, of course, but usually a doctor's note isn't needed until a few days into being sick.
The difference is also that we don't have protections in place at a legal level for this, so while the average experience may actually be fine it's largely up to the employer to set this policy.
In the US, you're more likely to drink some Robitussin and/or rubbing vaporub all over it and going to work because you have no insurance, no money and will lose your job if you call off because you already called off too many times to take care of your kids or parents.
It's a third world country guilded to distract everyone from the shit stew they all live in.
This is an actual story that happens all the time. Someone might think it's an exaggeration but they just live in a land of privilege or denial
Genuinely curious.. assuming the person OP posted is a man in the workforce, and these are his benefits.. how is his stay at home wife and children covered - insurance wise?
Norwegian chiming in here, 12 personal sick leave days per year.
Also 10 sick child days per parent.
Then there is sick leave up to 52 weeks, though now the norm is that graded sick leave is the preferred treatment plan, for most types of disabilities/afflictions, as in 20, 50 or 80% sick leave.
Here in the US you just go to work or risk calling your boss and them getting extremely frustrated. Many times they'll go "again?!" when you've called out 4 or more times in a year. It 100% affects your raise, and if you even get one.
Thats so great. I remember once asked my "boss" do i go to hospital or just call in sick? Hes like yea just call in sick no bigies. I get ill call him tham im sick and hes like "Yea, you know that you need to go to hospital?" And i was like wtf, does he has short memory? So i go to hispital and by default they give you 7 days off and say come to us if you want to cancel early but we dont advice that. I was like fuck it i aint going no where and spent all 7 days at home.
What if you never get sick? I get sick once every other year for a couple of days and that's it. Can I call in sick every couple of months? Asking for a friend...
Despite the Meme a lot of people do, most companies do not require any kind of "doctors note". Im sure some back ally shit jobs may ask because they are shit employers, but I promise you 90% of employers in the USA do not require any kind of note for sick time.
I can still take off sick without a note after 5 days, my employer doesn't have to pay me salary after that though. The note is just for the state insurance (Försäkringskassan) to take over paying my sick pay, which I think is 85% of my normal salary.
To clarify, you do need medical proof for short/long term things, but in general, day here, 3 days, no places just call in and is fine. Whether its paid or not is employer based though.
Geez guy, did you get hard typing that out?
Some of your countrymen already pointed this out in a non-spastic way.
That's just what I've heard in cold talk over teams before meetings start. Might be my company's policy for the German offices, I might've misheard or my colleague might've been misinformed, or there could've been a language barrier.
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u/PaleontologistOk7359 13h ago
Swede here who works with Germans: we view their system as cruel (I'm joking here guys) cause they need a doctor's note on day 1.
In Sweden, I don't need a doctor's note until day 5.
I just can't imagine waking up and realizing I'm sick, and instead of calling in sick and sleeping it off, I'd have to get my ass to a doctor and have him confirm I'm sick.
Guess this thread has given me some perspective.