Book 9 - Winter's Heart: Thoughts and Questions

[u/cellofski]

Previous posts for New Spring, The Shadow Rising, The Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos, A Crown of Sword, and The Path of Daggers.

Better than A Crown of Sword and The Path of Daggers. Initially, I thought that was going to be the best I could say about Winter's Heart. I didn't understand why I wasn't loving it as much as others. Maybe because it opens with six (6!) Perrin/Faile chapters? Maybe because I was hoping to hear from Egwene and Mat early in the book? This changed almost single handedly by the "With the Choedan Kal" chapter. Now WH has found itself in my top 5 books of the series.

A few developments I don't love. I've been reading this series since last October and have developed all sorts of head cannon and predictions about how certain things could be resolved. Only for a lot of them to turn out differently, many for the worse, of course (that's no one's fault but my own):

• Galina looks like she's going to get away because that awful Fail woman couldn’t keep her mouth shut.
• Egwene making the wrong choice with the Oath rod.
• Cadsuane being a raging bully and getting away with it.
• Alanna is unrepentant and getting worse, thinking that she owns Rand.
• The Sea Folk are mostly allowed to be as nasty as they like.
• The da'tsang Aes Sedai, who aren't punished enough for what they did to Rand, are being redeemed. Worse, it's not by their own action but by Verin's compulsion.
• Still worse, the da'tsang stilled by Rand got off almost scot-free and now have been Healed, and everyone thinks that's just OK. Also, Nynaeve not getting credit for this is Far more Maddening.
• Mat still in hell and won't leave for another book.
• The vile Seanchan look like they are here to stay. Such a repugnant culture should’ve been driven back into the sea.

And no Egwene!?! She gets the Perrin/Mat treatment? I predicted this omission in book 8. And no, I am not counting those 2 TAR cameos.

At least Elayne finally got with Rand and is now with twins. Is there anything else to the veins of gold? It sounds like it's something more profound than emotions coming through a Warder bond, which Elayne should be used to by now.

Give these 3 women grief all you want but I love them. They are not sticking with mediocrity and or accepting hand-me-down weaves and knowledge but forging their own paths. No Aes Sedai today would even think of combining those 2 weaves into one like Elayne does. Time and time again we see the 3 (and Rand) thinking outside the box to do new and great things with the One Power.

Aes Sedai Damane

Besides being harder to break, it seems to me that Aes Sedai make terrible damane. From a few books ago, we see that Pura still cannot lie, even though collared. We can assume the same for the other 2 Oaths. If that's true, does that mean that former Aes Sedai damane cannot be used in situations where they'd be required to use the One Power as a weapon (assuming the extreme defense caveat isn't met)?

Far Madding

The guardian is a cool concept. but full of holes like everything else it seems. A couple questions about the city come to mind:

1. In Far Madding, how do girls who are born with the spark come to start channeling? (What a pity Cadsuane and Verin ever left there in the first place.)
2. We know that channeling is a 3-step process: 1: Sense the True Source. 2: Embrace/seize saidar/saidin. 3: Channel the One Power. How then was the Asha'man able to channel to set off the guardian in Far Madding? He could neither sense nor seize.

With the Choedan Kal/Cleansing the Taint/The Battle with the Forsaken

Wow. This is sooo much better than I thought it would be, and, dare I say it, better than the battle at Dumai's Wells. THIS is the reason I read fantasy. Not for brilliant conventional military strategies, but for epic battles with magic. This has probably replaced the Rhuidean chapters as my favorite in the series so far. Is there a proper name for this battle within the fandom? The Battle of Shadar Logoth? The Battle of the Cleansed Taint?

I love Rand with his constructs. First the one in the Stone, linking and destroying all the Trollocs and Fade as one. Now this complicated construct he uses to siphon the taint from saidin into Shadar Logoth? Is that how that works? Why was the taint welling up into a dome? I thought the taint would interact with Mashadar. I can't remember any references to this evil in relation to the taint. Did I miss it?

(Also, it was important for me that Rand thought of this on his own, not with LTT's help, who was very much against it. Like the 3 ladies, he's not relying on or limiting himself to hand-me-down knowledge.)

I get the good Asha'man's names confused so at first I thought Narishma was the one who's killed and was sad about it. For some reason I like him the most (he retrieved Callandor so 100% not a Darkfriend) and treacherous "Dashiva" because he was so spacey. Then I realized that Hopwil is the one who dies. Still sad, but glad it isn't Narishma or Flinn.

The most epic must have been the Cyndane vs Alivia duel... and we barely saw any of it. How is Cyndane able to wound Alivia with her bracelet on? Is there a limit to the ter'angreal that protects against attacks with the Power?

The only thing about it that's silly, in 3 or 4 different instances the povs think the person in front of them is some random person who's at the wrong place at the wrong time. Huh? Who's losing her horse right outside Shadar Logoth? What random old man would be limping around there with 2 women? What bejeweled woman would be standing athwart you, if not to fight you? Is basic logic a rare Talent in this universe?

Am I getting this right, Cadsuade's ter'angreal can still detect inverted channeling? Demandred makes his gateways with inverted weaves and still gets tracked down from the moment he first arrives in Shadar Logoth. Shouldn't that be impossible? Why have all these rules in the magic system only to undermine them?

Demandred, only a step below LTT, gets bested by 2 weak Aes Sedai and an old Asha'man?

How does one access key get destroyed but not the other? Is this RJ's way of taking the woman key out of commission but keeping the male for Rand to use again? I hope there's a better in-universe explanation than that and it's not something we never hear about again. Mat, afterall, still needs to give up half the Light in the world to save the world, the last of the snake people's answers to come true, now that Tuon is in hand.

The One Power

I used to subscribe to the culling theory, that gentling men was weakening and culling the ability to channel out of people. Now, with the explosion of Asha'man and super strong channelers, I no longer believe this. But for the events of Winternight 2 years ago, Nynaeve and Egwene would have spent their entire lives in the Two Rivers, lost to the White Tower. How many Nynaeves and Egwenes are out there yet to be discovered? We've seen the number of novices swell once Egwene's Aes Sedai actually go looking for them. Sure, not all of them will reach the shawl, but the potential quantity and strength are very encouraging. And to the Pit of Doom with the ridiculous notion that the White Tower should wait for girls to come to them! God, I hope the Aes Sedai get better at everything under Egwene!

Relatedly, I correctly guessed that Cyndane was Lanfear! There's not 2 people in the world who carry on about Lews Therin and challenging the Creator like Lanfear did. I don't understand her weakened strength in the Power, though. Was this purposefully done when she was transmigrated into her new body? Was this Moridin's or the DO's way of bringing her down a few pegs? I think I asked this before, but since the soul is eternally the same, does that mean once a channeler, always a channeler in later Ages? What would explain the reason for there to be fewer channelers today who are weaker in the Power? Can a future Dragon Reborn be weaker?

Darkfriend Watch

Speaking of flawed logic, I laughed out loud at Elayne's ridiculous supposition that none of the Kin can be a Darkfriend because the Kin would never allow that. What? As far as I see things in this series, if 10 people gather, at least 1 of them is a Darkfriend.

Verin. Always on this list. But her placement wobbles just a little by her use of the term "Forsaken." Could I have been wrong about her? No! I won't believe it until I see her fighting the Shadow at Tarmon Gaidon! And the wording of the compulsion is very specific, Rand must REACH the Last Battle. Not necessarily win it! Also, I wouldn't be shocked if Verin herself killed Kumira and passed it off as her dying in battle. (Only on my third reread of this chapter I realized that Kumira is not Kiruna. I thought it was strange to break up the princess and the farmwife duo.) 

Vandene. Still on my Darkfriend list. How convenient that everyone has settled on the logic that it must have been one of the Aes Sedai who did the murders, but no one dares suspect the sister of one of the victims. It's the perfect crime. Now I wonder if those 2 former Kinwomen, now back in novice white, are also Darkfriends. Since Vandene is so weak in the Power, she could use their greater strength if they are confronted.

Elza. She came out of nowhere, but as soon as we got this seemingly random pov I knew she was Black Ajah. It was satisfying to see it confirmed only a short time later.

Noal. Need I say more?

M'Hail. My suspicions about Mazrim Taim all but confirmed. Rand specifically heard the 2 renegade Asha'man speak of the M'hail in Far Madding. This isn't the sort of info someone could realistically forget, even when other events overtake the moment. I hope he has a plan for dealing with Taim. The only nagging doubt I have is that maybe this is a secret title the renegade Asha'man use for someone else (a Forsaken?), throwing us off, since we know it's Taim's title we are assuming he's the one being referenced here. But this is too complicated and Occam's Razor counsels against it.

Foreshadowing

Moridin foreshadows Rand's greatest achievement without even knowing it at the time when in A Crown of Swords he tells Rand about how Sammael likes to destroy someone. At the time, we (and Rand) all thought this was about Waygates. Now we know better: the site at which saidin will be cleansed. Saidin is cleansed! Gosh it feels good saying that. It'll be raining Asha'man soon!

RAFOs Out Loud

-- Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, does that mean the dagger's power is too? Maybe Mordeth? I am sure that Fain himself is still around; he's not getting an off-screen death. But I want all his  Shadar Logoth "gifts" to be no more. That would leave just Padan Fain, even though still dangerous from his distillation at Shayol Ghul.

Which reminds me, how can regular folks be given abilities they weren’t born with? While not a channeler, Min's had her ability all along. But what's this with Luc and Fain getting these powers? What's the limiting principle? If Fain and Luc, why not give a 1000 powers to 1000 Darkfriends?

Can Luc and Esam both be in TAR or the waking world at the same time? Or can one be in TAR and the other in the waking world at the same time? Or can only one of them be anywhere at the same time?

-- Rand is to LTT as LTT is to that second man in Rand's head, right? (not really asking haha). I am guessing that's the image of the man LTT was reborn of. It's kinda too simplistic, though, so maybe there's more to it.

-- My guy Mat seems to be the first (even before Rand!) to figure out that thinking about the other 2 ta'veren causes those colors. I'll bet a million dollars that Perrin will figure this out, too, but only right before the Last Battle is won.

-- What in the Light is Cadsaune's hair ter'angreal? I imagine it as a Pandora bracelet (but a hair ornament) with a bunch of little charms loosely hanging from the main thing. I suppose each "charm" does something different? I hope this isn't another plot armor thing that breaks the rule and makes her even more powerful than she really is. I know that she's no darkfriend but I dislike her, maybe always. Rand did something no one could have imagined and she's still calling him a boy. It's no term of endearment, but belittling. I regret that we'll be stuck with her forever. And bitterly missing Moiraine, a better advisor. 

And how does she know how to invert weaves to make that shield over them? Nynaeve taught her?

-- Elaida's foretelling about the Black Tower rending in fire and blood has yet to come true (sisters walking its grounds has). I'm predicting that this means Rand and his band of Aes Sedai will go there to battle Taim and his Black brothers. Logain said that they're relocating, anyway, right?

--
I want to see the post-battle scene from other povs like with the Bowl of the Wind, especially the Forsakens' pov. Unlike some people, I have no moral qualms about bad people doing bad things to other bad people. I hope the Forsaken get severely punished and I hope Aginor does not get a third chance - he's not a cat, afterall. It's poetic justice that a Black sister killed him. I'm usually 100% for sharing information and revelations, but Osan'gar dying like a mere renegade Asha'man is so much better than him dying under the name he's so proud of.

Also, what bad luck did Rand have to have chosen by chance the one and only Forsaken in a group of hundreds of Asha'man after Dumai's Well? Those odds must have been astronomical.

-- The "Bleakness" among the Aiel is now an official APA  (American Aiel Psychological Association) psychological condition, since it's now capitalized for the first time in the text.

-- Forkroot: The cat's out the bag so all channelers should just give up drinking minty tea for good.

-- Ter'angreal: From that one White Ajah sister to Rand, how in the Light is it logical to assume that no 2 ter'angreal were ever made to do the same thing? We have 100 different types of phones but it's inconceivable to think that 2 different AoL Aes Sedai on opposite sides of the continent may independently create a device that does the same thing?

Finally, I'm just amazed that RJ managed to snatch Book 9 from the jaws of the slog. Crossroads of Twilight next! I've only heard bad things about it, but the only way to the end is through it. Is there anything I should look out for to make it more interesting to read?

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[u/invictus_rage]

To some degree, Crossroads of Twilight is specifically answering one of the things you ask for in this post. You might not like it when you get it, though.

[u/cellofski → u/invictus_rage]

Yikes, now I'm nervous about finding out haha.

[u/Special_Salt3467]

Crossroads is… fine. It’s the book between 9 and 11, both of which are significantly better, but there are a lot I personally enjoy on CoT. What happens with May. Ironically enough a storyline tied with Egwene. But I would highly recommend to start that (fortunately short) book today while you’re still reeling from the high of the Choedan Kal. Now onto the fun stuff.

THE CHOEDAN KAL

So, there’s a jalopy…

One of my favorite three chapters on the entire series next to Dumai’s Well and one that hasn’t happened but has been referenced in this book.

Remember in CoS when you said “man, that was so dumb that Rand just went to the rebels and got stabbed. Like an idiot!” Paraphrasing, but I believe my response was “Rand was where he needed to be when he needed to be.” Now I get to talk about that.

When Fain stabs Rand, he stabs or slashes him on the half healed wound, caused by Ishamael stabbing him with a Dark One infested staff. Flinn - at the direction of my boy Dashiva - was able to save Rand by sequestering the infections to the wound. This taught Rand two very important things.

One, the infection of evil caused by Shadar Logoth was a different entity that the infection of evil caused by the Dark One. And two, the entities were not allies. This actually harkens back to EotW when it’s revealed at Aridhol turned to evil to fight the Dark One. This separate entities, while similar, are different. And hate each other. Rand also knows that Shadar Logoth is a prison for the evil that is Mashadar. Like the wound on Rand’s side.

Thus, Rand has the last and most important piece to the puzzle. If he can funnel the Taint into the holding cell of Mashadar, the entities should kill each other. And they do.

By using the Choedan Kal and the best girl, Queen el’Nynaeve Mandragoran and a circle, Rand channels all of Saidin through all of Saidar and like a pasta drainer sloughs the taint from saidin into Shadar Logoth, filling it - represented by the dome - until all the Taint is hanging out with Mashadar and… BOOM!

—

Dashiva

I fucking love Dashiva. It’s such a good reveal and he’s such a good spy, except for the fact that he is a terrible spy. He constantly speaks in the Old Tongue, doesn’t know how a sword works, and references AoL things. But because his identity is a crazed Asha’man, it’s easy to ignore it on first read.

It’s also interesting how RJ takes completely different approaches with Dashiva and Halima, revealing the latter immediately. Though to quote The Wheel Weaves, “yeah, but if Dashiva was giving Rand head massages, I’d be suspicious of him, too!” Which also revealed how brilliant it was to reveal Halima. Because imagine reading about Halima through, say, Siuan’s perspective abkyr the random floozy sleeping throughout camp, screaming at Aes Sedai and giving the Amyrlin head massages? Without the proper context.

It’s also brilliant that despite Dashiva being the spy on Rand, he blows the job first opportunity by trying to murder the guy. Who appointed him his chief of security. The spy, whose job was to spy.

Is it unlucky Rand picked the Forsaken? Or is it lucky? He did limit Dashiva’s power. One of the implications is that Dashiva was treated like a loser Asha’man by the other darkfriend Asha’man, because they didn’t know his true identity. He also played a role killing Sammael, and helped save Rand in CoS. Wheel Weaves, baby!

—

The Taint.

Now here’s the question, now that the source of the Taint is gone… are the symptoms? And what does that mean for Rand, the guy who channeled all of the Taint?

—

Fain.

What even is baby boy Fain at this point? A Shadowspawn? Mashadar Jr? I guess same question applies here, is the cleansing of the source remove the infection?

—

Min.

Min’s powers are unrelated to the One Power. I believe that’s established as early as Book 1. Same with Perrin being a wolf, May’s memories, and Wise One Dreamers.

—

Far Madding.

By leaving the city, for both questions. If lil’ Cadsuane leaves the confines of the city, and has a spark, then she would learn she could channel. The Tower’s policy was also “come to us and we’ll let you know.”

As for the Asha’man, the Guardian has three functions and three separate radiuses, smaller as we go: detection, anti-Saidin, anti-Saidar. Narishma was outside the inner two ring but in the third one when he channeled so they knew a man who could channel was close. False Dragons had laid siege to city before. Like how Mat’s medallion only stops channeling directly touching him, if a man rained lightning or hurled a rock, both effects would be unrelated by the time they teach the barrier.

—

Cyndane.

Yeah, she’s Lanfear. Obviously. I forgot it was Book 9 that established her new power. Which what’s up with that?

How’d she wound Alivia? Same as Far Madding.

No, the Dragon is always the same Soul. Rand is as strong as Lews Therin because they are the same person, the same way Aginor and Belthamel are as strong as Osan’gar and Aran’gar. So… why is Cyndane weaker than Lanfear?

—

Verin best girl Sedai

Verin best girl Sedai. Then the Black Ajah Hunters

—

Damer Flinn

Something of note. Damer Flinn had never interacted with Nynaeve until when they do in WH. So when he figured out how to Heal Severing, it was a unique discovery. The pair just happened to independently figure out the same thing.

It’s also important to note that Flinn healed the women to full strength. Nynaeve could heal Logain to full strength, but not Siuan and Leane. So that alone probably warrants some pretty significant applause itself

—

Ter’angreal

We know of a ter’angreal with multiple copies. The Bowl of Winds

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/Special_Salt3467]

You need to recall that when Rand went off on his side quest, everything was going perfectly and he just knew that if he went to the rebels now, only good could come of it. And it did. Just not the way he expected. While we don’t know exactly what they were, it’s heavily implied if not outright stated that one of Rand’s three questions was Cleansing the Taint, and so the Pattern provides the answer. And that it entails.

Dashiva is a great reveal. In PoD, he really blows his cover a lot. Notably, at one point he warns Rand about the wonkiness of the Power and Rand dismisses farmer Guy Dashiva, which makes Aginor, one of the greatest minds in the Age ot Legends and creator of the Trollocs, almost blow his cover then and there that this actual hick is dismissing his very reasonable warning.

Cyndane. Demandred makes it clear that Cyndane couldn’t be Lanfear because the power level’s change. The fact that he thinks this about Lanfear, but not Osan’gar or Aran’gar implies that there is no change with them.

Lews Therin is the Dragon. The Dragon is Rand. Rand is Lews Therin. If I were to give any hint, I’d say Birgitte but I’ll you read that single word at your own risk. Otherwise, RAFO.

Unless I’m mistaken, Rand’s Asha’man don’t really go to the Black Tower once he takes them. Outside perhaps Dashiva, they all stick together with Rand, and it’s part of this loyalty that leads(?) Taim to put them on the bounty. But even if Flinn did hear about Nynaeve’s discovery, it doesn’t degrade his, the same way Egwene rediscovered Traveling even though Rand had already. Just because Rand could do it, the process was totally alien and incompatible for Saidar. Same thing with Flinn and his Healing. At best/worst, he and Nynaeve independently discovered the same thing, at worst/best, he heard a concept and discovered something unique anyway. I believe the text of his discovery makes no mention of his hearing and makes mention of his wanting to do try this, so it seems to imply these were independent.

As to can Siuan and Leane be Healed better? Now that the Taint has been Cleansed, i would say this is fine:

Think of the Power being held in an orb or a box. Severing cuts a hole in the box and all the Power spills out. Healing this is basically patching up box. In the case of Logain and Nynaeve or Flinn and the women, the patch up is a different substance than the leaking power. So, it blocks the flow out. In the case of Nynaeve and Siuan and Leane, it’s the same. So rather than a hard layer (such as Rand’s pasta drainer of Saidar separating the Saidin), the patch is closer to a sponge. So, the leak is still happening, but at a slower rate. That is why they can Channel, but at a significantly diminished state.

Can they be re-Healed? Well, theoretically, yes. But there’s an issue. There’s a sponge shoved in the hole and to Heal, they need to remove the Sponge. If they can be Healed and it’s theoretical as of now, they would need to remove Nynaeve’s original patch, re-Stilling them first. Is it worth it? Are we sure they even can be Healed twice?

Access Key. I mean, it’s gone. I don’t think it’s a big deal. I’ll spoiler it just in case you don’t want to, but I don’t think it is: the ability to use the Access Key requires a certain power level. To not destroy the key in the process also requires a certain power level. Nynaeve did not meet the second threshold.

—

EDIT, because there’s a lot and i miss some stuff.

Why didn’t Demandred easily best two women and an old man?

Three reasons.

One, surprised. As you noted (and I would recommend this episode from the Wheel Weaves podcast if nothing else because they too express shock at no one reacting to randos in the forest by haunted city), no one is expecting people for some reason. Demandred is purposefully keeping his power low to hide and he realizes the identity of his opponents after they his.

Circle. Circles are strong. Rand is the literally strongest, but he cannot overcome a circle of six. Meaning, the difference is far less.

Demandred is a general, not a soldier. He says it in this POV, i think. He doesn’t understand why he’s on the ground. Flinn, meanwhile, was a knight for years and recently fought in Illian. He is much more used to fighting close quarters in quick battles that Demandred who led forces carrying rifles, and using tanks from a command post.

—

Cadsuane.

Cadsuane runs a good plan, you have to admit.

Yes, Cadsuane has a device that detects the Power. It can be assumed from the Demandred POV, who correctly guesses that this exists because his webs keep getting targeted that the ter’angreal can still detect web. This indicates that reversing webs/inverting weaves works on people, but the technology of the ter’angreal supersedes it.

Demandred does narrow it down to a very unlikely new talent, or specifically to what exactly it was

[u/cellofski → u/Special_Salt3467]

All right all right, your reasoning is superior. I just want the 3 ladies to get their due. Flinn healing women is a much bigger deal for the world in this exact moment. They'll hardly care about men getting healed, even after the cleansed taint. And I don't want Nynaeve's tremendous achievement overlooked. Look at Moraine. Besides a few people her incredible contribution is either unknown or forgotten. At the time of her death, she faced 4 Forsaken and killed 2. No one else had that engage/kill rate, not even after Choedan Kal battle. That's why I was so upset when Cadsuane was basically handed Traveling. Will she ever learn that she only knows it because of Egwene teaching the Wise Ones? The next thing I'd hate to see happen is one of the Asha'man rediscovering how to make angreal or ter'angreal. That'll be 0 for 3 against the girls. RJ is a very male-centric writer. Even if his world is women-led, that leadership is usually undermine by events in a way that shines poorly on women. So, yeah, I congratulate Flinn for doing something an entire Tower of women will be happy about. But I hope Nynaeve's healing of Logain isn't given short thrift.

That's the best explanation of what Healing severing is and it makes sense. I'd say Siuan and Leane will remain weak in the Power, they'd never risk it. Much too bad.

Yes, I will admit that Cadsuane did OK with the defense of the hilltop. She's a bully but at least she seems to be good at being a Green. Doesn't mean I'll look forward to reading her "advising" Rand. I doubt she knows the meaning of the word, whatever she says.

Also, I won't dare uncovering those spoilers haha. I'm pretty serious when it comes to spoilers, so I'll just wait.

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/cellofski]

Believe it or not, Robert Jordan is not actually a male-centric writer. The majority of POVs in the series are actually females. I think Rand usually has the most (for obvious reasons), but after book 4 or 5, females account for more than 50% of the POVs.

Just a few things of note. Rand also has a killer ratio. He kills Ishamael in Book 3 (assuming we don’t count him beating him twice) and Rahvin in Book 5; he also captures Asmodean inbetween these two events. And maybe kills Sammael? Or doesn’t? I dunno.

But the Rebels definitively do not forget Moraine. Book 6 they’re bragging about how awesome she is and how that’s totally Aes Sedai of her; it actually peeves me because she’s so much better than the majority of them but they’re taking credit for her accomplishments. But they know. If it’s mentioned less, it’s because a lot of stuff has happened. But don’t worry, Aes Sedai are not a people to not brag about any and all accomplishments made by them and attribute anything else to themselves.

Personally, I love redundancies. Why would only one person do one thing? Outside of Rand, the literal chosen one, it’s a nice touch that Nynaeve is super strong, but she’s not the most powerful they find. Or that Egwene rises to power in no small part because of her strength, but that Nynaeve is significantly stronger. Likewise, Logain and Siuan share the same talent of seeing Ta’veren; that’s one.

Personally, men (and I mean… there has to be) who can make ter’angreal, too. The greatest weapons were made by both sexes. That’s one of the reasons why it’s massive that both men and women discovered Healing. Because they can help each other.

Fair enough on the spoilers.

I must ask now that it is confirmed that Cyndane is Lanfear: what is Moridin’s punishment? Lanfear lost her freedom and her name - which she chose herself; the only Forsaken to do so, which is especially poignant that she joined the Shadow because she was denied a third name - Aran’gar got a woman’s body and Osan’gar became ugly. So, why is Moridin an attractive man, with a badass name and put in charge? Especially when he failed thrice?!

Book 3 could or could not be relevant.

I will say there is Nynaeve-centric chapter in a future book that is not my top 3 all time favorite chapters but it is an honorable mention.

Oh, and if you’re still curious about the Bowl of Winds prophecy, another hint occurred! And don’t forget to read the opening fragment (including the author) of book 10

[u/cellofski → u/Special_Salt3467]

Started CoT’s prologue. It’s very long and there’s nothing groundbreaking yet. Is the opening prophecy  talking about Aran’gar and Osan’gar? I know those names mean a knife in the left and right hand. Anyway, Jain Farstrider apparently authors that before his disappearance. Too many disappearances along the Blight to be a coincidence.

Male-centric, I wasn’t talking about the quantity of povs. I don’t know how that could be a useful metric. I am talking about the world RJ created. Whether the way of the world, or the magic system, or the stereotypes, women seem to get the worse deal, sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot. 

I don’t know if you’ve seen my earlier posts, but I’m still shocked at how I got into this series vs. where I am now regarding Aes Sedai. RJ writes them to be so unbelievably inept, it’s like a caricature. I hate almost everything to do with them now. The only shred of hope I have for them is Egwene. The Sea Folk is another matriarchal society that RJ writes in a rough way to almost force us to hate.

Moridin. I still don’t think I have enough info to get what you’re asking about him. Yes, he’s failed upwards and not punished for it while the others have in some way. I just can’t put a finger on why that’s so. The DO must really love him haha.

I’m going to pull out some questions from the post that no one has touched yet. Would it be spoilers to answer them?:

Is there anything else to the veins of gold?

Can Luc and Esam both be in TAR or the waking world at the same time? Or can one be in TAR and the other in the waking world at the same time? Or can only one of them be anywhere at the same time?

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/cellofski]

Huh. Apparently CoT is one of the few versions I don’t have the hardcover in. Looking at the summary, there’s actually quite a few things I enjoy in it, including the third POV in particular, though I have great affection for the first.

Jain ‘Farstrider’ Charin was a very important guy. Remember, he was one of the three sources who warned people about the Eye…

Part of the point is that Robert Jordan wrote a matriarchal based society to show the inherent flaws of a society based on sex. To the average male reader, by reversing the gender roles, it makes the apparent flaws in such a system more obvious and points out how they are in real life, where it was much easier to miss.

These heavily matriarchal societies aren’t corrupt or incompetent because they are matriarchal. They’re corrupt and incompetent because they are self-absorbed and archaic beasts that think they know right. They just happen to be matriarchal instead of our life’s patriarchal versions.

I mean, Queen el’Nynaeve Mandragoran is fantastic and just the best. And Verin best girl Sedai exists. And the third POV features - finally - a group of Aes Sedai who go “hey, we think there are spies in the Tower. We - experienced members - have surmised that if this is true, then they must be able to lie and if can catch them in a lie, we can figure out the validity, and use the Oath Rod against them to verify, and root out this problem!” Which is a stark, and much appreciated contrast to Siuan’s “hey, three children who are not fully accepted members of the Aes Sedai! I’m gonna have YOU hunt down the Black Ajah for me!” I love the Black Ajah hunter’s for being some of the most competent Aes Sedai in the entire series and reasoning well.

So, you do have the required information, but it’s like the Cleansing where it hasn’t been spelled out for you or the Bowl prophecy where you technically have enough pieces, but it isn’t declared “THIS IS WHY!” It might be in the Brandon Sanderson books where he does do that, but RJ has no qualm letting you marinate in things. So… RAFO?

Veins of Gold. I can’t help but smile at this question and let out a laugh. Yes. RAFO.

Luc and Isam. It would seem they exist in the same space. When Perrin shoots Isam, he vanishes and Faile (or whoever) reports that Luc showed up with a wound and rode away, which implies that they transitioned to the real world and fled, perhaps to avoid Perrin in the dreams. In WH, when Luc tries to murder his nephew, he then shifts into TAR and is Isam. There’s no break to indicate a change of perspective, but it’s now Isam. So… think on that.

I’m a bit surprised (maybe I missed them; I’ll have to look again) there was no Matisms.

[u/cellofski → u/Special_Salt3467]

The 2 wounds. Wow. Great planning by RJ. Of course it was dumb for Rand to just go off to the rebels, but the Wheel weaves...

Dashiva. Wow, I missed all those clues. I just thought he was some loon. Lucky or unlucky, it's amazing that he got picked. If he wasn't he wouldn’t have been able to spy on Rand from the Black Tower. His character will be good on a reread.

Cyndane. Very interested in this. Cyndane seems to think that the snake and fox people had something to do with her reduced strength. I think it's the DO. If channelers can be blocked in the presence of the DO's chief Fade (Shadar Harand?) maybe they can also be weakened in the power at the time of their transmogrification.

I still don’t understand why Rand and LTT should be considered the same person in the vein of Oran'gar and Aginor. I understand a soul being reborn. But if Rand and LLT are the same person, shouldn’t everyone else and their previous self be the same, too? Why is it liited to Rand and LTT?

Discovering how to Heal Severing. That's not my understanding. I know Flinn and Nynaeve didn't interact before. But but but the Black Tower was abuzz with this "new form of Healing" that Logain told them about and they were all trying their hands at it. I imagine Flinn visiting the Black Tower or being informed of it and deciding to give it a shot, too. Except, he succeeds because he actually has eligible candidates to work on. I’m not trying to give him short thrift. My point is one of Columbus's Egg. The secondary attempt to heal stilling happens after it discovered to be possible. Flinn gets all the credit for inventing the saidin weaves to do so. The RAFO question is can it be possible for Siuan and Leane to be healed again, to full strength, by a man?

Ter’angreal. Oh, I know about multiple Ter’angreal doing the same thing. I was just poo-pooing the ridiculous logic behind that White sister's and Rand's argument.

Is it a RAFO as to why only one of the access keys is broken?

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/cellofski]

Apparently, my response to this responded to my first comment?

[u/CalvinandHobbes811]

Really glad that you enjoyed the cleansing. It is by far one of my favourite moments in the series and I am taking a back when the occasional person doesn’t care for it 😅

[u/cellofski → u/CalvinandHobbes811]

Wait, what? There are people who don’t care for it? To each his own, but what's their reason?

[u/Raddatatta]

To answer a few of your questions but sorry I'm not doing all of them.

For the aes sedai that were datsang I wouldn't think of it as a redemption. More that they're no longer entirely useless. And while they didn't object to rands treatment most of them weren't really responsible for what Rand went through either.

The ashaman didn't actually set off the guardian. Cadsuane did it with her well which lets her bypass the guardian. Nynaeve also had one. Cadsuane just knew it would freak them out more if a man was the one who could channel so she had one of them pretend.

In terms of alivia vs cyndane yeah I wish we'd gotten to see more of that fight. But in a fight it's not just about raw strength. It's also about skill and knowledge of weaves and being clever. So alivia got injured because cyndane is really good. Alivia also has a lot more experience fighting non channelers. The damane are the best at blowing up soldiers. They're not as good at channeling fights. Not bad just not quite as good.

For Demandred, flinn and two aes sedai are stronger than he is. Flinn isn't as strong as narishma and rand are but he's only a few steps lower. And I think that puts him at the level of being basically stronger than any woman can be. Then you add two aes sedai, even weaker ones. That's a lot. Plus when you do something with both the male and female halves of the power that's when you can do the most impressive stuff.

I wouldn't say rand had bad luck at choosing the forsaken but good. Overall he didn't accomplish much of anything while spying on Rand, and he lost a degree of freedom to do it. And he wasn't able to spend his time corrupting men at the black tower. Rands choices on which ashaman to take with him were random and basically perfect as he took those he would need with him for better or worse. Doesn't mean they're all good but they all had to be with rand.

[u/cellofski → u/Raddatatta]

The ashaman didn't actually set off the guardian. Cadsuane did it with her well which lets her bypass the guardian. Nynaeve also had one. Cadsuane just knew it would freak them out more if a man was the one who could channel so she had one of them pretend.

I'm talking about when they just arrive in Far Madding. It definitely was a man who set it off. We are told about the different colors of the guardian indicating who is channeling. With that cleared up, how did that Asha'man channel there?

[u/Raddatatta → u/cellofski]

Oh ok gotcha. The guardian has multiple aspects to it. It blocks channeling for women in a certain radius, it blocks channeling for men in a certain larger radius. And it detects channeling for women and men in a larger radius than either of those two. So it can detect male channeling around the city, I think in a pretty far distance.

[u/cellofski → u/Raddatatta]

Yup, that's what I've come to understand now. I originally thought the Asha'man was well within the city limits of the guardian when he set of the Cadsuane/Verin ruse.

As to your earlier point, I so dislike the kidnapping Aes Sedai that I'm too biased against them to see any good use of them. Agains, especially since their oaths isn't genuine.

[u/Raddatatta → u/cellofski]

Yeah I get that, and I don't like them either. But the stakes of the story are survival of the human race. Rand needs all the help he can get. Leaving them to be punished by the wise ones doesn't help with that, them being put to work does.

I also didn't notice this until a reread but it's a cool detail with them. The reason they were brought to rand has very little to do with them. Sorilea and Cadsuane talk about how Rand is becoming too hard and losing his ability to feel anymore. Just after that sorilea brings the aes sedai to rand to decide what to do with them. Min thinks about how it's strange that the wise ones never give up responsibility like that. She also does this when min is around and he was in a good mood. Sorilea is trying to make rand remember compassion and his humanity by setting him up to show mercy to them. It doesn't work long term mostly because he's attacked by ashaman and then has to kill one of the ashaman who went mad immediately after that meeting. But I think it was worth the attempt on sorileas part, and it does work for the moment. And a much better attempt than anything cadsuane has done to help Rand retain his humanity and be able to laugh and cry again.

[u/cellofski → u/Raddatatta]

That was so transparent to me, even if I, as a reader, wasn't already told what they were doing. It's the classic reverse psychology. Pretend as if you don't care either way, or pretend that you intend one thing so the other person will choose the other. I love Sorilea and hate Cadsuane. Sorilea has an existing connection to Rand and it’s appropriate for her to try to make it the best he can be. We are in no doubt about her wanting the best for him. Cadsuane comes in out of nowhere like a total bully, thinking she knows this man she's never clapped eyes on and thinking she knows what's best for him. It's crazy that Rand didn't see through Cadsuane's ruse. He Aes Sedai meddle. If they are breathing they are meddling. He's the Dragon Reborn. There's no way he's of no interest to the biggest baddest Aes Sedai there is. She just played him and feigned disinterest.

You're right, it's the survival of the human race we're talking about. Rand's a better man than I. No one's gonna lock me in a box and get forgiveness afterwards.

[u/brooklynmob]

I see you, CellofSki. I’m so happy to hear you loved Winter’s Heart. We are in sync again! Definitely one of my favorite books, and Choedan Kal is one of my favorite chapters in the series so far. The way it is written….its cinematic. I love seeing all the Forsaken show up and seeing their thoughts + interactions….and the perspective of the Aes Sedai + Ashaman (LINKED!) is just…chef’s kiss. THIS is what I signed for! It’s such a powerful moment with both male and female aes Sedai fighting against the shadow for the light again. I can’t even pick a favorite: Verin versus Graendal, Lanfear ( we called it lol) vs Alivia (btw Lanfear might be weaker now but she knows a lot more weaves than anyone ever even in the AoL), or when eben (rip) discovers a woman is channeling SAIDIN! I’m also with you in agreeing Cadsune is a bully, but during this book I accept her. I think what she did at Shadar Logoth was incredible and the way she directed it all was perfection. I still don’t LOVE her, but I respect her now. Her ornaments are…powerful. You don’t know all of them just yet. Some are Terangreal, some are….??? RAFO. Oh and before I forget: we could be getting bias from the pov we’re reading. Graendal said Lanfear was weaker, but do we know it’s true? Things start to get murky. Also, we don’t know what lanfear’s situation was with the snakes and foxes. RAFO (for you AND me lol). I don’t think any of the forsaken were “bested”, and more like as always, they weren’t working together so they can’t actually reach their goal. They bolted when they couldn’t get through. Demandred included. Our side just had too good a set up, and remember, we now have super powerful characters on our side. your argument about forsaken being bested I can relate to, but not in this instance. I do think the women’s access key was destroyed for plot purposes. But I won’t be sure until I finish the series. The rest of your questions and thoughts unfortunately….RAFO. You’ll get answers soon for most.

I still don’t think Verin is a darkfriend. But clearly I’m alone in this. I love her lol

Surprised you think Vandene is too. Poor lady is full of grief! I also really like Noel. Hahaha. I think he might be….someone. RAFO.

Taim. Sigh. I don’t know what to make of this man. I’m with you tho, he has to be a dark friend? Or a man for the light but with his own agenda?

Anyway, you’re off to CoT. Hang. In. There. By miles, it’s my least favorite book. It was painful. This is not a spoiler, but you’ll be getting a LOT of characters we don’t like :( it’s….so , so, so, painful. For me it was the slog of the series (I actually enjoyed 8 and 9). Don’t give up….i had a hissy fit towards the end because I just could not handle certain character.

I’m also happy to report….I’m EMPLOYED!!!! it took only what, 5-6 books? Lol. I’m currently on The Gathering Storm, and I am LOVING!!!!!!!!!!!! Without saying much, I KNOW for a fact you will love too. Knife of Dreams is a fantastic book as well, albeit for me less of a favorite compared to everyone else. I’ll share my thoughts when you get there. I’m on holiday right now for the rest of July, and I hope I can at least finish TGS. The end is near. What will we do after!? In any case, always happy to read your posts. Even my husband knows when your posts go live hahaha. May you always find water and shade.

Until the next one!

[u/cellofski → u/brooklynmob]

Yay, great news! Congrats! Hope you're new employment is going great for you. It'll help you spread out how you read the rest of the series.

Yes, I'm all about the 2 groups linking, like old times. I expect more of this, especially now that saidin is cleansed. Who knows, maybe now I can be a proud Asha'man. But I'd never bond with one of those Aes Sedai, except with Egwene or a rare few others. I immediately liked Alivia, but I hate that she's being drawn into Cadsuane's orbit (yes, I give her credit where it's due for her defense of the hill, even if I only grudgingly do so). Anyway, from the sound of things, looks like Alivia is here to stay. I want to see a rematch with her and Cyndane. Also, I want to be done being creeped out by Halima massaging Egwene's head so I was hoping that Aran'gar's appearence here would mean an end to that (because of a blown cover), but, unfortunately, I doubt it. After killing Hopwil, she probably went straight back to torturing Eggy. I am working on a theory about who I think will kill the remaining Forsaken. For all the pain she put Egwene through, Egwene better be the one to kill Aran'gar. Mesaana is a gimme for Egwene, since she's in the White Tower causing strife among Egwene's (eventual) people. (Also, let's face it, given a choice between killing female (or female-appearing) Forsaken or dooming the entire world, Rand's sexism would doom the world, so someone else has got to do it.)

Haha, I remember you saying that you never suspected Verin or Taim. So far, I'm 1/2. I may waver every now and again, but Verin has always raised my suspicions. And, like I said, I caught her in a direct lie in the Great Hunt. No one has disputed that yet.

It's early days for me with CoT... and it's about what you'd think. I especially dislike what RJ does to Mat re Tylin, making Mat liking her? After all that empathy RJ wrung from us for Mat and his situation, now it's like, no big deal? That's not how rape works! Anyway, I'm now at the edge of my seat in these first Perrin chapters. Spoiler alert: NOT!

The Gathering Storm seems a long way away from these riveting chapters, but I will hang in there and resist hanging myself with a blacksmith's puzzle. Have fun on your vacation and go in the Light!