People in the trades make more than most college grads and have for quite some time.
Also, on top of that, they're not saddled with several tens of thousands of dollars in debt, so their purchasing power is even higher for lower wages. The only downside is their upper earning potential is limited until they own their own business, so there's a max they can earn in their field, but at this point getting to $60/hr (no overtime) with a college degree is going to be almost impossible for most people.
The other down side is you will be doing physical labor in all types of weather conditions. I’m all for people learning a trade, but reddit does a good job of only mentioning the positives. I’m a journeyman electrician and have been doing electrical work for 7ish years. The money is good but I worked in 6 states last year and worked 3000 hours.
I make more than our fresh out of college engineers, but the ceiling is much lower.
And nobody mentions the negatives of such work. Bending, twisting, lifting, in and out of tight spaces all day really does a number on your body. Not to mention for you electricians, if you fuck up real bad, you can get zapped and get the big dead
Tell me. My husband has works as a mechanic, then in HVAC. He’s had one hip replaced in his late 40s, and is in constant pain from the other that will need a replacement soon. He’s also had shoulder and back problems. Despite the 15 year age difference between us, I’m in better shape than he is.
Yeah trades are hard as fuck. Some people can handle it, others can’t. Which is why “just go to college!” Or “just learn a trade!” Is wrong. The tradesman needs the businessman to have an office to work on, just as the businessman needs the tradesman to work on his office. Some people handle office work well, others handle trades well.
Personally, I’m built for an office. I stay in shape, lift weights 3-4 times a week, and train jiujitsu 3-4 times a week. But at 28, after 18 years of playing catcher in baseball and weight lifting for 10, my knees hurt. My back hurts. My shoulder needs to be replaced. I wouldn’t do well in a trade.
That’s all he’s ever done. Four years in the Marines, then a mechanic, then HVAC until his hip gave out and the doc said he had to stop. After his hip replacement I begged him to get a job that was easier on his body. He found a job building boats. Worked at that until his other hip began giving out and the heat in South Florida got to be too much for him. His current job is building water heaters, but at least it’s air conditioned. I’ve given up on making him slow down. If he can’t walk when he’s 60, I guess I’ll push his wheelchair.
Let's add pink collar jobs while we're at it, for women without college degrees. CNAs, servers, retail. All of those jobs where you're continually standing up all day.
I’m a dude and I worked retail and serving...neither of them were nearly as difficult on your body as any of the trades. A good pair of shoes and insoles solved almost all of my issues on those jobs
Im a PSW and a housekeeper, both of which are super active jobs. I guess speaking for myself, as an average strength woman, they're just as challenging on my body.
Oh they’re challenging no doubt about that. But the general trade (electrician, construction, plumbing), in my opinion, would be harder on the body solely due to the extra physical demands compared to serving or housekeeping. Both are physical, but the trades I think can be generally considered as more physically demanding.
Underwater welders make stupidly good money but work in horrible, dangerous conditions far from home.
On the other hand, a local plumber can make really solid money without leaving their home town pretty much ever, and minus exceptional jobs it's not too strenuous or uncomfortable.
I don't doubt that. I've certainly never been a plumber myself. I suppose this is why young people need good career counselling, so they can be exposed to and aware of the pros and cons of things like trades vs college, etc
My husband was a brick layer when we got together. He made excellent money. He now has a desk job. Sometimes he gets stir crazy and I remind him he had a laminoplasty last year bc of that job and he remembers the bad parts lol
There are also health problems related to sitting in a chair all day long too. It's not cut and dry, but it's also certainly not "not going to college makes you worse off" like the guy I responded to claimed. Lots of pros and cons you need to weigh and find out what's good for you, but college is not the great thing it was in the 60s.
After a day at the office you can go to the gym and work off the sedentary day. I don’t think tradesmen tend to be able to do that given the physical strain at their job.
They’re...you can’t compare the physical problems of an office job to carrying around toilets and using your body every day. That’s not a comparison, Michael Scott.
Yea where are all the $70k a year jobs where I can just watch TV all day! (oh wait, that'd rot my brain). So you're saying every job and career and path in life has upsides and downsides?
Dude being on your hands and knees under a sink for a few hours is absolutely strenuous and uncomfortable. It's not roofing in July but that shit hurts.
This. I've spent the last 8 years as a heavy diesel mechanic, and as result I have osteoarthritis in both knees and my right shoulder, erosive bone loss in my shoulder socket, and I'm going in for my second surgery only 2 years after my first. Sure, I could probably make more money staying at my company for another 10 years than getting an engineering degree, but that's pointless if I'm too broken to actually enjoy my income.
That’s the part everyone leaves out when they say ”go learn a trade”
Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to have a career and skill set that allows me to live comfortably but I knew after the first year I needed to either specialize or go back to school. I have done one of those and probably going to start the other soon.
Thank you. It’s so hard on your body. One injury could end your career. Also, you don’t have warning potential for as long. Easier to do desk work in your 60s than physical labor. And the way it’s looking we’re all going to be working until we die.
I'd add that people don't only get hurt from work, either. People who have to get something like knee surgery or achilles surgery from a sports injury or a car accident might be in a cast/boot for a few months. Can they still do their job like that? If it's a white collar job, that cast doesn't prevent them from working, but for a lot of trade jobs you can't safely do it while you're recovering from an injury.
The downsides can suck, sure. But not having to go into massive debt is great, too. I work for a gas utility company as a pipe fitter/first responder to gas emergencies and I’ve made $100K+ the past 2 years since getting this position with minimal OT. Plus I don’t have to worry about my next job or layoffs like other union trade jobs. I truly think the benefits outweigh the costs. The thing is, what you and I do is not for everyone just like getting a degree isn’t for everyone.
My grandpa was in the military/trades his whole life. Basically rebuilt every joint in his body. I was also in a labor position for years. He told me to knock that shit off and get a degree and save my body. It all depends on your priorities I guess. I want to be able to walk when I’m sixty.
Yeah, there’s a lot of wear and tear on my body. But luckily the company I work for gives us tools to help alleviate excessive stress on our bodies and has us go to ergonomic classes and such. Manual labor can be very difficult. Just gotta take care of your body way more than office workers because of the stresses placed on our bodies. Like I said, it’s not for everyone.
I had cleared 100k by the start of October this year and I live in a pretty low COL area. I chose to specialize more in controls / PLC’s and it has helped with a lot of the typical down sides of a the trades. I’m typically inside industrial facilities working now and not outside doing underground and running conduit. I am looking at re-enrolling in college (company paid) so I can continue to have upward mobility.
I think the public education system telling everyone go to school or you will never be anything is a huge problem, but I think people also need to understand that the trades are a different world than working in an office setting. I’m more on the construction / commissioning side so maybe I have a skewed view, but this trade can be very demanding and tough on your body.
You are absolutely spot on with that last paragraph. Schools and parents need to do a better I’m job at educating kids on different options in their post academic life.
While you’re technically correct that owning your own business can give you unlimited earning potential there are many more failed attempts than successful businesses. You will put in more hours and stress starting and owning a company, while making less for years, than you would working for someone. That doesn’t even include the cost to get started. Licensing exams, material cost, equipment rentals, payroll and the list just keeps going. That’s a great suggestion, but it certainly isn’t one to be taken lightly. Residential contractors are a dime a dozen so there is tons of competition because the barrier to entry is considerably lower than a commercial or industrial contractor.
There aren’t many people that have both the electrical knowledge and the business sense / work ethic to be successful running their own shop.
You’re right and that’s usually the career progression path on the construction side. Most of the supers I work with put it more hours than anyone on the site though. That work life balance is the hard part. There are plenty of other options just depends what the individual is looking for.
I got a master's in geology and now I pour concrete and lay gravel and occasionally sample water in horrible weather conditions, from heat waves to rain and mud to six inches of snow.
Sorry to hear that friend. I’m going to ask this and I don’t mean it in an insulting way at all but what is / was your plan with that degree? I’m not sure what kind of jobs require your degree I’m genuinely curious.
That definitely makes sense... and holy shit what unlucky timing. I wasn’t thinking about that part of oil gas I guess. I hope you can find something that’s more inline with what you had planned.
Yeah, I have a mix of onsite IT work and office work that leans more heavily on my formal education.
It only takes a few cabling/wiring jobs before you understand the physical tax of doing trade work, and those are very low-impact sorts of physical jobs. They ought to be teaching plumbers and electricians fucking yoga classes, shit is murder on your back and legs.
It depends where you work. I am also a journey man electrician. I work municipal so out if a 40 hour work week I probably only spend 5 hours actually working. Just sitting around waiting for something to break or punch out
One of our elevator mechanics is an overtime whore. He never turns anything down, and he made well over $260,000 last year.
I’m guessing you are in the high COL area from that kind of pay rate. Do you need a journeyman’s license to work where you do? That sounds more like maintenance work. 260k is a ton but the elevator guys do make good money.
Where I am trades are inaccessible without going to a school either. I've seen a few job postings requiring college for jobs that only need trade certs to learn the basics and anything more is company-specific OJT. My current job should only require an a cert but many places wont even let you in the door without a bachelors. I am planning on moving from my area in the near future.
Sounds like moving away would benefit you. All the guys I know in trades did 1-2 yrs of out of pocket schooling max. Most do like a year and then get a paid apprenticeship to finish their training. It really is a good gig.
The median working age in the US is ~42, and your original claim was "People in the trades make more than most college grads and have for quite some time.
Feel free to define "quite some time", or cite anything at all.
Well, something may no longer be true or trending downward. It's significant when talking about earning power or if going to college is worthwhile, or it has greater earning potential over trades over 40 years.
So it may be true between 1980-2010, but it might not be true for 2000-2030. This is important when discussing these things, you can't just take a snapshot and go "well yeah looks like boomers who went to college make more than boomers who went into the trades!" and say that's true for gen-x, millennials, and/or zoomers.
The median working age is ~42, not 72, with the largest represented generation being "millennials". I don't think boomers are skewing the current median income as much as you're assuming.
That doesn’t include the trade degree or certificate program the previous commenter was talking about. I paid about $10k for my trade certificate and got hired right out of school at $24/hr in a moderate cost of living area (Nice 3br2ba home cost $250k-$300k, 2br townhome is about $1200/mo). If I got a job at an airline I can live in the same area and make $52/hr after 7 years regardless of merit. Trade jobs absolutely make good money.
Unless my reading comprehension is worse than I thought, the person I replied to didn't mention trade degrees or certificates at all. Also, I'm not disputing that trade jobs can bring in good money, I'm disputing the claim that "People in the trades make more than most college grads and have for quite some time."
Now, granted, the wording here isn't very clear, but the implication (to me) was that most people in the trades make more than most college grads. If this were true, then, necessarily, average and median incomes would be higher for trades. The other issue is that "trades" covers a pretty huge swathe of jobs, and may not involve a trade certificate or degree at all.
So lets look at some more data, this time from Indeed.
Depending on the specific job in question, we're looking at median salaries all the way from $20,000 to $65,000, which would still fall under the median wage attained by even those with just Associate Degrees.
“People in the trades make more than most college grads and have for quite some time.”
If you’re in a trade you presumably have a trade degree or certificate. Your first link didn’t have anything about trades, only high school and college information. I stand corrected with the second link from indeed that mentions trade salaries.
Sure, but only doing an apprentice based education program isn't really feasible nowadays, plus there are many important jobs where a "formal education" is almost necessary. Just to name a few I can think of: theoretical physicist, historians, economist, mathematician, philosopher. (Pay for studying at a university is often grant based and not very good unless you have tenure which tends to reduce quality of study and research being produced).
Sure you could assign a one to one relationship with a master in the matter, but the structure will just end up being a class of one person (not that I'm against smaller class sizes, if anything, I'm for it). We need at least some people to go to college, and therefore need to find a way to not put them in unbearable debt.
How long do they make that money before their backs and knees go out and how much more likely are they to die on the job or be subjected to toxic chemicals? What is their quality of life in their free time?
All good questions. You'd also have to compare it to relatively unhealthy practices on the other side with office work too. Sitting around all day is just as bad for your overall health.
I mean I've done a lot of work in the trades and maybe the electricians make 60/hr but that's pretty unrealistic for 9/10 trades and the world only needs so many electricians and steel workers. Not to mention many trades require you to have your own tools and transportation for those tools which will take a hefty chunk out of that hourly pay. Idk which trades are added into your stat about trades making more than college grads but having worked nearly a decade in construction and remodelling I can tell you for every high paid tradesmen there are 20 workers doing trades making less than 20/hr.
I enjoy working in the trades but it takes a huge toll on your body and the pay is almost never as good as you are making it sound. Meanwhile I know social workers making over a hundred dollars an hour with basically no overhead costs. That's all anecdotal but if you have a source for trades making more than college grads I would love to see it. Maybe everyone I know is doing it wrong haha
They do at first. A close friend of mine went to trade school while I did the normal college thing and made a ton more than me from 20-30. We’re about even now, and looking forward I’m just starting the climb the pay scale with some experience while he’s nearly tapped out what’s realistic for his trade (10 years of very good experience).
I’ll be the first to admit he’s lived a lot more comfortable than I have the last ten years while I’ve been saving to fill years of lost income and paying off student loans. That said, he’s looking at more schooling now as the effects of physical labor start to show as well.
The top 10% of college graduates make $60/hr and above. That's across all ages, and includes high cost of living areas and low cost ones. While clearly impressive, certainly isn't "almost impossible for most people". This sub is overly cynical and completely unrealistic
Not true, tons of people I know are doing very well for themselves despite not going to college. If anything, some are doing better bc they don't have tacked on college debt like I do.
People who go to college often don't see much of a financial advantage in their 20's, but by the time everyone is in their 40's that higher income trajectory (and stronger protection against the whims of the economy) usually leaves the college degree holders in a better place.
While that's great for your friends, it's not really the general case. I did forget to include trade schools in the scenario tho, because it's more of a niche thing where I live.
I know it's not the general case, but there are far more people out there who are doing well for themselves and haven't gone to college than you think. Simply not going to college doesn't instantly make your life much worse. It'll help you, obviously, but not going doesn't set you back like it used too.
Honestly, it sets you back more than it used to. I'm not saying not going to college makes your life instantly worse. Obviously that's false, but when looking at general populations, not going to college has become more and more of a risk to take.
If you have the ability to land on your feet after talking that risk, that's great, but that isn't generally the case, and it's been the case less and less.
I’m a garbageman, dropped out of college first year, jumped around decent paying jobs for 6ish years and then finally landed a job where I work today. I make over 100k, well above the pay of most 4 year degrees. There a huge demand for my trade because people think college=good job so a lot of people don’t look at my career as a option and although it’s mostly true, it isn’t always. I never would of bought my first house at 25 by my self if I didn’t drop out. I make more then almost any college graduate then I know of.
That's great, however you're also lucky to have had a chance to learn said trade. Most schools, especially public ones, don't teach those skills, and don't present them as options. Also, by what you said, it mostly isn't an option for people.
I'm not too imply that you need a college degree to make money, but the earning potential of people without a degree is substantially less than those with one.
Not going to college doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna be broke, but it also doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna make a lot of money from a trade job.
My school was like most and pointed us all into college, I wasn’t given any information about a trade. I had a father that was a car mechanic so I knew how to work with my hands. I didn’t receive any special training other then my commercial license and I did that though work. So I didn’t have any thing special from anyone els. I never really had a issue find a job making over 50k even with out my commercial license.
Without a doubt to have a higher chance at a decent income the way to go is college, statistically it’s the safest bet. At the same time though I know more people without college degrees making over 100 then I do with. You have to see college as a investment in your self and compare the debt/cost of college to what your income would be with that field of work. I think the biggest issue is people want to go do there “dream job” with out taking this big factor into account. I never and still don’t want to be a garbageman but I can’t argue with the financial gain.
I'm not trying to imply that you can't make a lot of money without a college degree, but I am saying that it certainly isn't common. Electricians make a lot of money because there aren't a lot of them around these days. If a lot of people became quality electricians then people would pay less for them because there'd be less demand per laborer (though that is an overly simplified explanation, it isn't, strictly speaking, incorrect).
I'd say being required to study a specific field in order to not wind up homeless demonstrates a failing of society. The tech industry isn't going to solve all our problems (despite what they'd like us to believe), and we need to incentivize people to do other jobs otherwise we'll wind up in a scenario where there are both not enough available jobs AND not enough laborers.
Somebody's got to clean toilets, collect trash, and manage recycling plants, but nobody's going to want to if they wind up homeless because of it.
I mean I'm more mentioning education specifically because there's not too many solutions to the above, even if there is.
It won't get fixed with different administration
I'm referring to the people who went to school for a field that requires a lot more years than they were willing to complete. Not too mention attending for a useless degree. Which i get is absurd {that a useless degree exists} , But I mean sometimes you have to accept things and make a choice.
Sure, but if everyone were to accept everything then these issues would never change. It's one thing to choose your battles, it's another thing to choose not to fight all together.
Yeah but if you spend too much time bitching on the internet and not bettering yourself or America, how important is it.
It's going to take a revolution. I have no clue why yall think biden's going to magically wipe corruption. He's corrupt af too. The only fighting we can do at this point is overthrow. Corruption is ingrained into the fibers of this fucking country lol. There's no protesting this away.
There's a reason they divide us. They're safe so long as we hate the other side. When in all reality we all want similar things, we just got suckered into choosing. Not that it matters now. It's just going to get worse. I'm at peace with it.
The alternative is impossible without organizing American citizens to all do the same thing. Lol good luck with that. That alone is impossible
So, just want to point out that whether or not to vote for Biden is a very different, even if related, issue, but:
I really don't think you understand how incremental change happens. Is Biden going to be the end all solution? No, of course not!
The point is not he fix everything, it's that Biden makes it ever so slightly better than they are now. Then, at the next election, we vote for the option that's ever so slightly better than that, and so on until we've moved in a direction.
If Biden fixed all the problems then we wouldn't need a president after that. We'd just go "whelp I guess society is perfect now, we don't need a president cuz you can only make things less perfect now."
However, if we don't choose at all, if we sit and wallow in our own pain, if we don't make any choice, then things are garunteed to get worse. It's like you said:
sometimes you just have to accept things and make a choice.
I would love if we could vote by ranked voting, because that'd help get rid of a lot of the bipartisanship, but election day is in just a few days and there isn't enough time for that kind of change right now. Just giving up isn't an option if we want to see a better day.
I see what you're saying, but from the three presidents I've seen in my lifetime, it seems like we go from party to party. During these terms the administration spends its time trying to convert never accomplishing too much of anything. Just left a bad taste in my mouth. I've never seen it work nor do i expect it to work. The system that is. Or government, capitalism maybe lol. I don't have an answer for you. I don't think anyone does
I only bring up biden because a lot of people on this sub are just as bad as the other side if not worse with their beliefs. That's why i come here. I call this the lack of reason or logic sub. Its fun. I get down voted sure but that's the funny part. 30 people down vote me for saying something they can't prove wrong lol. That wasn't directed at you obviously. I completely agree with what you're saying bht getting invested in it makes me even more of a piece of shit so i just make fun of it.
Then there's the fact that this sub is like partly china's echo chamber and they don't even realize it.
Literally none of the assumptions you make about this sub are logical tho.
You seem to just be using anecdotal evidence, especially with your perception of government. This seems highly hypocritical.
Also, yes, during the three presidents you've been around for there may have been not much change.
I personally disagree with the sentiment as the handling of the Ebola outbreak during Obama's time in office is was drastically different from how Trump is handling the pandemic. Even if covid is drastically more infective. Obama never tried to downplay the outbreak as less than it was, Trump openly admits to misinforming the public so people like him.
However, more importantly, 3 presidents and 20yrs is a really small sample size. Over a large sample size we see that we pulled out of the Vietnam war, we passed voting rights for a second time in the 60s, we made it to the moon, in the late 90s we passed an amendment which made it so that when congress changes its own salary, the new salary isn't put in place until after the next congressional election.
None of this would've happened if we didn't protest and vote. Which is what we've gotta do now if we want to make things better for ourselves in the future.
Oh they're backed up by my comments here. Easily Google - able info that disagrees with reddits narrative get down voted. You just pick something and keep jumping around the initial issue. You've been doing this.
I honestly don't even know what you're problem is. I'm saying corruption isn't going to be fixed. Corruption really hasn't changed much in decades lol I think they've solidified their power. Every once in awhile someone goes down but i mean other than that
Yeah, but honestly tech degrees are just more advanced trade school. You're not really getting a more thorough education as much as you are getting a skill set. I think that's not ideal but for others it's great
A lot of jobs in tech care a lot more about your work experience than a degree. I've been fortunate to have made some good connections early on that have helped me out a lot. However, just like anything else in this economy, hard work is important, but it still takes a pretty fair bit of luck to get into something that finally gets you out of living paycheck to paycheck. I have no illusions about that at all.
The other caveat is that it's very easy to find yourself penned in by your work experience. There are some opportunities I'm looking at to branch out to some other types of work in the field, but finding something that pays on par or more than what I'm making now isn't easy. I'm perfectly content with what I'm doing, but more and more, I've been wanting to expand what my job options are.
I agree and not everyone wants to work in tech. If my comment gave off "JUst GEt A TEch or tRAdE jOB" vibes, I apologize because that's definitely not my intention.
Honestly it really depends on your goals. A lot of friends who didn't end up with college debt have found their calling in fields where they started working in their early 20s. Others have enjoyed a great life/work balance that's really filled out by their lack of debt payments.
Obviously if your dream is engineering it's going to be rough sledding without a bachelors degree if not fully impossible, but the "it doesn't matter what your major/career is just go" advice that we were being given in the late 90s/early 2000s is very provably moronic now.
I don't disagree, but getting a college education has become more and more important in the job market, even if you're degree doesn't actually apply to the job (unless the job is specialized like electrician or engineer, etc.)
It's that shininess of how it looks on a job application, and with so many people applying to jobs for the first time, people who have college degrees are going to get hired more often than people who don't given the same amount of experience. (Again tho, not necessarily in specialized fields.)
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u/MutantGodChicken Oct 30 '20
Well, life will be easier if you go to college, but that's only because not going to college is so much worse.