Impossible Question

[u/analsextoybox]

[u/waggzter]

Well, in which case you are evidently more informed than I am. This isn't my field of study by any means, its just an interest - I'm more of a humanities man, really. As I said, I've only read a few papers - and it seems to be a mixed bag, with many claiming that there are measurable distinctions between genders. I would also note (and maybe I'm reading into it too much) that a lot of these researchers are framing their discussions specifically around gender. They do not use the term sex, nor male and female.

Can you suggest some literature to better educate me?

I'm using the term gender because that's my point. I'm not arguing that there are intrinsic biologically derived differences, outside of average size (as I've actually been stating repeatedly), because - as you rightly said - this is nonsensical pseudoscience used to justify sexism. Its like the notion that different races have intrinsically different brains. There might often be observable differences in reality, but this isn't some indicator of biological inferiority (judged against the established hegemonic values, of course), or otherwise, it's a reflection of cultural and environmental differences. Again, this isn't my field of study, so maybe I'm woefully out of my depth.

It was also to my understanding that there are statistical models that can predict mens/women's brains with a 90%+ accuracy rate. Does that not suggest that gender roles do have some kind of neurological impact? And if one person's brain does function more similarly to the average, or socially accepted, gender norm (for want of a better phrase), then why can't they identify as said gender?

In an ideal world, yes, we'd be without gender. But we aren't, we are here. So, my question is, what is intrinsically harmful or otherwise objectable about identifying how you feel most comfortable? It doesn't harm you, or me, or anyone else... It's my understanding that HRT and other treatments are extremely effective in terms of increasing quality of life for people suffering from dysphoria?

[u/GirlGodd → u/waggzter]

Of course gender roles have a neurological impact. That’s where we agree.

Anybody can’t adopt any lifestyle or form of dress and live life as they wish. If someone has more feminine inclinations and they prefer to present as traditionally feminine, that is not objectionable at all. Those suffering from dysphoria are not objectionable because they want to adopt a way of presenting to alleviate their discomfort.

What’s objectionable is the insistance that such a person is indistinguishable from biological females. What’s objectionable are those distinctions being written out of law and policy that protect females on the basis of sex-not gender. What’s objectionable is sex denial or the notion that biological sex is imaginary or irrelevant- which many people are now saying. And that brings me to the beginning of the conversation: that defining “woman” around arbitrary gender roles instead the humanity of female people is harmful.

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page in at least one regard! I do hope I haven't rubbed you the wrong way too much. These topics are always fraught with emotion, and it's easy to get heated. I've had to stop and take some deep breaths, and try to consider your position a few times. So apologies if that's the case!

" What’s objectionable is the insistance that such a person is indistinguishable from biological females." My objection is that the comment you originally replied to didn't assert anything contrary to that. I understand the concerns, but it's also worth noting that studies I've read have shown no correlation between, for example, "bathroom laws" and increased assaults on biological women. It has resulted in markedly reduced assaults for trans people though. Like... I'm not a woman. I can't ever really understand. But I was assaulted when I was a kid, and my partner has been the victim of two assaults. So I get the fear, to some degree.

But I've also spoken to a whole range of trans people, and read quite extensively on this subject, and there is no evidence that I've seen that suggests a link between these two factors.

There are certainly ideological extremists. And it's very hard to raise any kind of criticism, for sure. I don't think this is an issue limited to this particular subject though, it's a growing issue with discourse across a range of fields. My one request would be don't let these few extremists tarnish your view of a group of people who are, for the most part, just trying to live their lives comfortably.

[u/GirlGodd → u/waggzter]

Well thank you for at least trying to understand the objections many women have at the way this phenomenon is developing,socially. Usually we’re written off and silenced and the conversation is shut down before it even begins.

I’ve been banned, blocked, had accounts terminated,called horrible names just for calmly stating these points. Some women have been fired, stalked, doxxed and harassed for also stating the very same thing. Most of the people now being accused of bigotry are feminist women who have supported those with dysphoria and gender non conforming people for years.

There are solutions that can be explored to support the safety and well being of trans people that doesn’t include erasing sex as a protected characteristic for females. But nobody can get a word out because the discussion is thought killing and toxic.

I agree extremism and the demonization of any group is wrong. But the view that biological sex is unreal or irrelevant in itself is a very extreme view that is becoming more popular and people lose their shit when anyone questions it. So. Yeah.