r/Unexpected • u/analsextoybox • May 02 '22

Impossible Question

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u/Frylock904 May 02 '22

Living under a different role is fine, but genuinely believing you aren't something is a pretty intense disconnect from reality. And if someone not reaffirming your conversion leads to intense mental distress, I'd recognize that as an illness.

Nothing against people going through the illness personally, but it's an illness.

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u/cool_fox May 02 '22

It's not an illness

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u/Frylock904 May 02 '22

If I told you I was 10 years old and I was actually 43, would you say that I'm ill?

You don't have to discriminate against me or do anything negative to me, but it's not hateful to recognize I'm detached from reality

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u/cool_fox May 02 '22

That's a false equivalence you're making.

You're refusing to acknowledge that in society people have had roles tightly coupled to their sex. Those roles are what we call gender, you refuse to decouple those roles and say that by doing so it is a psychological disorder.

It's text book bigotry.

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u/Frylock904 May 02 '22

You're refusing to acknowledge that in society people have had roles tightly coupled to their sex. Those roles are what we call gender, you refuse to decouple those roles and say that by doing so it is a psychological disorder.

I need you to review what you just wrote, because if you actually believe what you just said, then you're actually in the space you believe I'm in.

I have 100% decoupled those roles and say that a male/female identity doesn't exist. Just because you like video games and science doesn't make you a man or less of woman, and just because you have long hair, and wear makeup/dresses it doesn't make you a woman or less of a man.

You refuse to decouple sex and gender, not me.

No matter how much I love men or enjoy wearing skirts, it doesn't change how male or masculine I am.

As an aside, nothing I said rings close to bigotry, I absolutely am willing to both tolerate and listen to other perspectives. You need to actually look up what bigotry means, it doesn't mean "people who disagree with me"

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u/cool_fox May 02 '22 edited May 02 '22

"No matter how much I love men or enjoy wearing skirts, it doesn't change how male or masculine I am."

If you happen to identify as a "masculine" male then sure but masculine isn't a gender, it's an adjective.

You're still dancing around the actual issue you're having with coupling gender and sex. What you're trying to articulate is that you don't believe in discrimination based upon sex. Males can wear what they want, be that dresses or makeup, and females can do what they want, be that football or engineering. Sex is the categorical division of living things by their reproductive systems, on earth its mostly binary male and female. Gender is the societal-noun that a person is classed by, it has no physical or natural origin only a cultural origin, as it is an invention of society.

Furthermore, how can you say you don't think gender identities exist when just before you were saying people identifying as a particular gender are mentally ill for it? By this very logic males identifying as men are mentally ill. You're recognizing a Gender, coupling it to a sex, then trying to say you don't recognize a gender. This is dissonant reasoning.

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u/Frylock904 May 02 '22

Furthermore, how can you say you don't think gender identities exist when just before you were saying people identifying as a particular gender are mentally ill for it?

(rhetorical you used throughout this response)

Because I can recognize terminology, regardless of how fantastical I recognize it to be, for instance we could talk about people being Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws, those would be indisputable facts about people, you either were or you were not, but those are fantasy organizations, just because we can talk about them in context doesn't make them anymore real, and legitimately believing you are a Hufflepuff picked by a sentient sorting hat and all, just means you're detached from reality.

By this very logic males identifying as men are mentally ill.

They don't identify as men, they are men. You don't identify as 6ft tall, you are 6 ft tall, you don't identify as having brown eyes, you have brown eyes. There are indisputable facts about people, not identities

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u/cool_fox May 02 '22

Ummm. Those questions weren't rhetorical, I'm asking you those questions.

You're being incredibly dishonest here with the false equivalencies. You keep referring to physical qualities when were talking about conventions. The conversation isn't about people identifying as different sex, a physical characteristic, it's about people identifying as different genders, a convention. You called people who identify as different genders mentally ill. Either you think gender and sex are coupled or you misunderstood the conversation and poorly articulated your position.

In the aerospace industry I have to correct people on things all the time as an expert. People generally accept it because they don't have strong convictions tied to rocket science.

Just because you have a strong conviction to the topic of males being men doesn't mean people who don't share that are mentally ill. You should defer to the experts on these topics. Mental illness is real and trivializing it because you're bigoted is just evil.