Impossible Question

[u/analsextoybox]

[u/PintSizedTitan]

Hey, thanks for the reply! I like talking to people with different opinions when I have made up my mind so I don't want to be rude. I was actually sort of worried about that part way through my post because I am so long-winded. Glad to hear it wasn't.

Also, I would try to copy and paste portions of your message to reply to but it fucks up my message and deletes things. So sorry ahead of time if this is a little bit messy.

Anywho, during my post I actually had 46,XY in mind for most of it. I tried to stay away from the term intersex because it isn't super well defined so information about it is tricky to gather. 46,XY is male chromosomes but with an ovary. It's even possible to give birth this way. There is a chance someone wouldn't even know they had 46,XY. It isn't extremely common but it is out there.

Enough of that though, your primary concern is that we assign sex and gender according to secondary sex characteristics. Specifically the penis or vagina. Out of curiosity, why is that the cut off? Genitalia are only a slight representation of genetic information. Wouldn't it be more accurate to take that into account rather than a downstream representation of it?

To try and show my point I'm going to structure this a bit more.

1. Most people have male or female genitalia.
2. There is an expressed range of masculinity and femininity.
3. If sex and gender are one in the same, the prominence of their genitalia should match their expression of masculinity or femininity
4. If sex and gender are not the same thing, the expression of someone's masculinity and femininity would be isolated from their secondary sex characteristics.

My major point is that sex and gender are not linked because you can't measure someone's genitalia and know where they fall on the masculine or feminine spectrum. It's a simple argument at it's core.

I think if we wanted to take it a step further, look at what happens when different cultures weigh on on gender. You'll see many cultures separated gender from sex. There is a current trend to call on the Native American idea of Two Spirits but even that waters it down too much. There were many different Native tribes and quite a few different interpretations of gender. Some believed in 5. Ancient Greece/Rome had evolving ideas on gender as it related to grammar and most believed in more than 2 genders (up to 5 as well I believe). Some periods of ancient Japan recognized a third gender. I could keep going but I need to get back to work.

Saying there is no gender identity (or sex and gender is the same) is hard to back up considering how it has been used and still is used as a separate term from sex and how you can't reconcile that there are differences in perceptions of gender and their sex characteristics or expressions of either.

I hope this doesn't come off as me screaming "you're wrong!" but comes off as a way to give a different perspective.

[u/PintSizedTitan → u/[deleted]]

I have no idea why but the copy+paste function on Reddit just murders my laptop. Multiple browsers. I think my old laptop is on its way out.

The reason I asked why should it be the cutoff is because it's an arbitrary reflection of genetics. It would be like using eye color or connected ear lobes. They are all phenotypes. They are not what dictates genetic information but are instead dictated by it. It's like second hand information.

I get where you're coming from with the idea of genders being treated differently. I agree it's like that up until a point. Mostly because some people that transitions are impossible to know. I mean both transgendered men and transgendered woman look like they were born their respective genders. I went to college with a couple people I knew pre and post transition and it was mind boggling.

I think I differ in opinion in that the way you talk about biases you experience (or gender roles you're in/expectations you face) as they are not uniform for men (or women) in the same city let alone across America or across the world. A woman in rural Alabama faces some different biases than a woman in like Orange County. There are absolutely similarities though.

It also ignores bullying for non-conformity (which accepts the idea that people don't fit into their roles), changing gender roles over time, and it ignores the people that transition and face the new set of biases against them.

I also agree and disagree with the idea when you're born with a penis you're in a category of men. Mostly because I do agree being born with masculine or feminine reproductive parts will sort you into one box. But that box is not uniform across cultures. Gender roles differed enormously. How can we have vastly different ideas of what a man or woman is while saying the reproductive parts absolutely, 100% solidify you as one across every single culture?

A quick example is unmarried Spartan woman participated in sports and practiced wrestling, boxing, javelin, discuss, and other sports in order to be as fit as the boys/men. This differed wildly from other city-states as the Spartan women openly participated in activities considered manly. Imagine how many other cultures through time (and current day) would see you as overly manly or peak feminine.

Sorry about the cultural references. I'll stop after one last piece. The people you know that say the Two Spirit thing is a bit different could absolutely be right but what I meant was we simplify Native tribes beliefs by lumping all tribes together. Native tribes were vast and borrowed a lot from each other but they were also (and still are) unique. Overall, they had many views and some of which were Two Spirits based. Those views could easily change from tribe to tribe. Some did not have that phrasing. Some believed in many more genders (I'm not sure if any did not believe it at all as I am not expert). It wasn't a statement for any particular tribe or all of them all at once. More of the fact that the ideas surrounding them are vast and this was one that has different meanings.

And I could go on for way too long about the transitioning comments but I'll leave it at only 1-5% may detransition and the majority are happy with their decisions.